Post Natal Impressions

[Dr. Z]

.. no words..

If this works as advertised..

Holy M'c ******ing jesus.

that said.. some noticeable lag.

[Dukotoja]

pfft, im not impressed. what made you so excited about it? was it Steven Spielberg? cause he dont impress me either.

[UC1]

Makes me think of vaginas.

[igotnewsuper8systemWRONG!]

If this works Nintendo must be shitting themselves, the inevitable 360 Fit is going to demolish Wii Fit.

[Dukotoja]

not to mention the milo rape mini games

[Dr. Z]

it will be like wiimote or the DS touchscreen, developers will have to invest the time to make great use of it. but in terms of intuitive control possibilities. it's punted the ball out of the ****ing park.

a truly seamless interface...

If it works as advertised and they kill the lag issue.

[Dr. Z]

not to mention the milo rape mini games

heheheah, my first thought was "can you **** it?"

[UC1]

It's the same as eyetoy!

[Silph]

I really hope this works well, if only to seriously show up Nintendo.

[Lazlow]

I have no f***ing idea what this thread is about.

[Sweating Bullets]

It's for the Xbox360. Motion controls similar to Wii.

Thought the Wii was the cutting edge of motion gaming? Think again. Microsoft just showed off a new technology called Project Natal that simply blows the Wii out of the water.

Natal’s motion control lets gamers take control of titles using their entire body. There’s simply no controller, you just walk up to the console and start playing. Movements are captured and understood, as are faces, expressions and voices. Natal can even recognise objects. Read on to see why this is the future of gaming, and should have Nintendo and Sony very, very scared. We’ve even got a video of it in action too!


The Xbox Project Natal sensor has two cameras and microphonesProject Natal was introduced not just by Microsoft bigwigs, but by movie legend Stephen Spielberg and gaming supremo Peter Molyneux. That’s because it has the power to turn games into a true mass entertainment medium.

“Everybody loves movies, but the vast majority are too intimidated to pick up a controller,” explained Spielberg. “Despite the size of the industry 60% of households do not own a videogame console. The only way to bring interactive entertainment to everybody is to make the technology invisible.”

Mylo, Lionhead's first game to use Project Natal hardwareThat’s exactly what Natal does. Sitting underneath the TV and containing cameras and microphones, the device can see you, and hear what you say. It recognises movements in 3D, and is smart enough to follow you around the room, tell the difference between you and other people on the sofa, and be controlled using anything from a fist to a fingertip.

Spielberg also let slip that he was only shown the Natal technology two months ago. This is seriously fresh, but that doesn’t mean it’s pie in the sky. Microsoft is showing the technology in action at E3, and we’ll be there for a play ourselves.

Development kits are also arriving with game makers today. So will you need a new Xbox to use Natal? Not at all. Microsoft says “Natal will work with every Xbox 360 we’ve sold and every xbox in the future. We can leap into the future of interactive entertainment without launching a new console.”

[banjoeskimo]

Guys, we've been here before. A lot of the reactions I'm seeing are quite similar to the post TGS glory of Nintendo's 2006 controller unviel, and I'm amazed people are falling all over themselves about this thing when they haven't even used it yet.

Don't get me wrong, it's an impressive piece of tech, and if it works half as well as the concept video then I think there'll be some serious fun to be had with it. But let's be realistic here; can anyone see themselves actually playing a Formula 1 game at length with their hands up like that? Does anyone see themselves playing round after round of a new fighting game with that much physical motion?

There are limitations to this technology. Motion intensive gameplay can only work in so many situations, and especially if your whole body is involved, fatigue will be an issue. Furthermore, the most amazing tech in the world is meaningless if it can't be applied well / correctly to game design. How many times have you seen a Wii game sell itself as innovative, and then just apply last gen's game design to a new controller? Also, tactile response is an issue. Did anyone actually have fun air drumming in Wii Music? I didn't. Again, finding genres and scenarios where a lack of tactile feedback works well is going to be the challenge.

Now, this isn't to say it's the same thing as the Wii. Being able to use your entire body in (presumably) more accurate ways than the Wii remote will surely open some doors. The addition of voice recognition (and the possibilities Peter Molyneaux detailed) could be a huge plus. But I don't see these being used in every game, and frankly, I'm not sure many existing franchises would convert well to a full body-motion setup. More than likely, if it is integrated well into existing game design types, I think it will be done with subtlety and sobriety, much in the same way Super Mario Galaxy took advantage of the Wii.

I probably sound like a bit of a downer right now, but I just don't see the point in getting excited about ushering in a new era of game design or revolutionary ideas just yet. We've been down this road before, and it's yet to bare any substantial fruit. Right now I'm yet to see anything that will stop this from being another piece of tech that everyone gets revved up about for its "exciting possibilities" before realising, a year later, that the extent of its appropriate use is far narrower than expected and then throwing the "gimmick" label around like it's going out of fashion.

Still, at least Microsoft looks better positioned than Nintendo to navigate the waters of new controller technology; they've got a strong base of traditional games to start with and seem to be keeping most demographics happy, so it's not like they're in a bind and lacking content if they run into problems.

Mostly, I just hope that motion based control is seen as one of many members in the gaming family of entertainment, and they don't repeat the same mistakes of the past in trying to force it upon every game possible.

[Lazlow]

Neat. But if EyeToy and Wii has shown us anything, its this shit is pure lightweight gimmickry. So yeah, I'm staying very cautious and reserved.

EDIT: Eibach beat me, but more long winded :p

[Stevorooni]

Like I said in the other E3 thread, it looks like it promises the same shit that the Wii remote promised in it's early promos.

I'll believe it when I can do it myself!

[AranchineD]

Given it's an "optional" piece of tech, I personally could not give a shit about this because even if it's forced into every game released from now on it could only be an optional 'extra' part of those games (unless it is a game released specifically for the thing and, let's face it, none of the AAA titles for the console are going to be) so I wouldn't have to worry about it anyway.


So I say just sit back and let developers do whatever they think they can do with with no pressure about actually having to push it into all their games.

[Stevorooni]

SO... does anyone else want to punch milo in the face then push him into that lake?





No?... no, me neither... >_>

[banjoeskimo]

So I say just sit back and let developers do whatever they think they can do with with no pressure about actually having to push it into all their games.

That's actually a very good point that I forgot to touch on. Seeing as day one access won't be to everyone, hopefully we'll see it used when it needs to be, and not just because it can be.

Still, Microsoft did say during their press event that they intend to ship every new 360 with one of these once it's done, so they're obviously interested in a very high penetration rate. I wonder how much it'll cost for existing owners?

[Lex]

pfft, im not impressed. what made you so excited about it?

...did you not watch it? if it works the way they say, it's some advanced shit. of course it probably won't, peter molyneux etc.

[Dukotoja]

not sure what kind of game it will make better. don't really care about splashing paint on a digital canvas or making elephant shapes out of two people or kicking balls around. The kind of game play I'm interested is in depth story telling rpgs and online frag-a-thons which I don't really see as games that would be easily ported to this kind of tech.

sure its a fancy new set of tools but only time will tell how far it is implemented.

[Stevorooni]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/Stevorooni/motioncamera.jpg

[Lex]

The kind of game play I'm interested is in depth story telling rpgs and online frag-a-thons

if that's the only kind of game you care for... it's a bit odd, but surprisingly others are interested in different game styles - not to mention it seems to replace a controller for certain types of games (racing, for one) - though we'll see how that goes...

[Dukotoja]

i agree that the applications of this new tech seem to be fairly wide spread but like Eibach said who is going to choose this over a wheel/pedal set up for racing games for long term play?

anyway i mostly agree with you that it will have befits that some will find appealing. i, however are not one of them.

[Stevorooni]

The racing thing looked awful, as awful as the Wii Wheel.

[Lex]

i agree that the applications of this new tech seem to be fairly wide spread but tell me like Eibach said who is going to choose this over a wheel/pedal set up for racing games for long term play?

casuals. and that's all they need.

[Dukotoja]

if your argument is that this is great for casual gamers like a little sister of an old granny then i think your right, this will be a great thing for 360 sales in that regard

i however am not interested in them or their games.

[Adios]

A resounding meh from me.

It's caught in a weird place between VR and traditional gaming.

[JubeiSaotome]

Eibach said it, but what game genres can this actually work with, without fatigue? RE1&2 or Silent hill wouldn't be too bad, as long as it's just walk around and shoot.

[Lex]

i however am not interested in them or their games.

that's cool, I don't care.

[Stevorooni]

If they bundle this with the arcade and some simple games and make it cheaper than the Wii then they could steal some of that Wii market share

[AranchineD]

Light gun game where you use a gun peripheral of your choice (or use a real one if you want to!) and the game detects where you're aiming and when you pull the trigger.

[Stevorooni]

Light gun game where you use a gun peripheral of your choice (or use a real one if you want to!) and the game detects where you're aiming and when you pull the trigger.

More like you sit there with your fingers in the shape of the gun and it fires when you say "pow pow pow!"

EDIT

and to fire a shotgun you have to say "chk chk boom!"

[AranchineD]

Or it's a sci-fi game where you do exactly the same thing but say "pew pew pew!" instead.

[Lazlow]

Eibach said it, but what game genres can this actually work with, without fatigue? RE1&2 or Silent hill wouldn't be too bad, as long as it's just walk around and shoot.

Curious to see how you could implement walking, when lounge rooms are a confined space. Walking on the spot? Bit lame...

And using it in lieu of a steering wheel sounds awful. You need something tangible with defined arc to have any form of precision.

I don't see it being all that different from the Wii to be honest. Great for casuals, but the games will largely be of little subsance.

Light gun game where you use a gun peripheral of your choice (or use a real one if you want to!) and the game detects where you're aiming and when you pull the trigger.

Which raises the question why bother when current light gun formats are in no way different to what you propose?

[AranchineD]

BECAUSE IT'S MOTION CONTROLLED WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe

[JubeiSaotome]

Now how the hell am I going to do a Psycho Crusher? Way to ruin my Bison, MS.

[Fenrir]

A few things.

Firstly, this stuff is very good for user interfaces, and Microsoft would do very well to develop a new interface around it for the X360, port the peripheral over to Windows, etc.

Secondly,
Curious to see how you could implement walking, when lounge rooms are a confined space.
^This, game world displacement isn't addressed by any of these new control schemes. I don't think putting a Wii-nunchuck-like control stick peripheral in the player's hand is going to cover it this time, either.

And finally, Milo interests me a fair bit more than Natal itself. Molyneux's team seems to be working on something approaching a sentient agent, is there any word on how it stacks up against former Loebner Prize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loebner_Prize) contestants?

[HiredMan]

Should I change the thread name to "Pre-Natal.",then "Post-Natal." after release? :p

[Xanafalgue]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/Stevorooni/motioncamera.jpg

LOL :D

Paedo's around the world are most likely planing on 'hitting it' too...

[Dukotoja]

Should I change the thread name to "Pre-Natal.",then "Post-Natal." after release? :p

pls change it to 'lex's-natal' now.

thanks

[Xanafalgue]

I keep thinking of

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2009/6/1/1243891505572/Rafael-Nadal-001.jpg

[Lex]

pls change it to 'lex's-natal' now.

thanks

that's some serious butthurt there friend, perhaps you need to let it go, it was just a nep :)

[Dukotoja]

perhaps you shouldn't nep someone for simply having a different opinion to your own. anyway i have let it go. don't care nor did i ever.

[banjoeskimo]

I feel I should probably clarify my position further before I take up the mantle of lead naysayer toward the Natal.

My main problem isn't with the tech. Personally I think the raw technology in their, and its potential, is freaking amazing. I should also note that I feel exactly the same way toward the Wii. Conceptually, they are both impressive, and in terms of potential, both are fantastic.

The problem for me arises in the gap between a technology's potential, what is actually realised, and the intentions and motivations of those using said technology.

The argument that is often put forth goes something like this...

Premise: Everyone reads, listens to music, and watches movies, but not everybody games. This is a problem, and as an industry, we haven't yet found a way to communicate with people en masse in the same way that other mediums have.

Hypothesis: This is most likely because people find the interface of gaming devices too complex, and so we need to radically change (and simplify where possible) the way people play games.

Conclusion: This will lead to a gaming revolution, where people of all kinds will universally embrace our medium and gaming will finally take up the same mantle as movie-going.

Now, to begin with, I'm not entirely sure I buy that argument. I think there's a fair amount of truth to it, but I don't think it fully examines the issue. The premise is accurate enough (if you ignore the fact that a good portion of Westerners don't actually read recreationlly, and that most reading is of a news articles rather than fiction), and the hypothesis has proven to be true in some cases, but the question for me is; is that the only reason non-gamers don't game? I don't think it is. It ignores the fact that our pastime is inherently expensive ($100 price of entry vs free for TV, $5-12 for a movie and $25 or so for a book?), time consuming (10 hours for a game vs 1-2 hours for a movie or TV show?), and most importantly, an active pastime instead of a passive one. You can't sit your way through a game the same way you can a movie. It requires constant attention, the development of new skills for just about every new title, and hours of your time at minimum. In short, despite what you might feel to the contrary, it is anything but a lazy activity. If you intend to sit down with a game and see it all the way through, it's more than likely that you'll put more effort in to it than any TV, book or movie you'll ever encounter outside of school. If you want to game, you've got to really want it.

Back to the Natal for a second. During Microsoft's presser, I heard Molyneaux echo claims that had been made by Nintendo a few years back. Games were too complex, the controller was off putting, and we need to move forward in a radically new direction. The biggest need for this push? 60% of households don't game. If we could pause at this point for a second, let's examine that...

60% of households don't game. So, just over half, but a comfortable majority. Alright. That still leaves 40% that do, which is certainly not a number to scoff at. What of that 40%? Are they somehow miraculously equipped to deal with gaming in a way the other 60% aren't? There's clearly a disparity Peter, I agree, but if you've got 40% of people captivated with your product, clearly there is something there that works. Clearly the controller isn't a total aberration.

Which is why I don't buy this whole urgency to abandon traditional game design at the drop of a hat in favour of body-based control. And even more importantly, it's why I don't buy that there's only one magical piece separating gamers from non-gamers, and it's the interface alone. I realise what comes out of the mouths of executives at an E3 presser and what goes on in the real world are two different things, but it would be nice if for once they'd cut the bullshit and be honest. This isn't the way of the future. This isn't the final key that will turn all the world into gamers. This is a cool piece of tech with some good potential that will be one of many fronts in the battle to push forward as a medium. Trying to desperately justify yourselves by bringing a movie director on stage and saying, "See, he finally thinks we're cool! We've finally been accepted by the big kids!" isn't a sign of a mature industry, it's a sign that we're desperately attempting to validate ourselves. Why? We already rake in just as much money as the movie industry, and I'd wager there are just as many serious gamers (if not more) than there are readers at this point. We've only been going for thirty years. Give it time, mellow out. We'll get there.

In any case, the crux of my argument is this: to place so much importance in one aspect of game design only isn't just disingenuous, it's fuel on the fire of development studios everywhere, eagerly clamoring to new technology in the hope it will fill the void left by a lack of creativity. It pushes the Natal not as a piece of technology to be used when appropriate, but the status of some bizarre messianic device that carries the future of the console on its shoulders.

Microsoft knows this. We know this. It's why we're so wearily wish the Wii's games would follow through on the promise of its concept, and its why Microsoft spent the vast majority of its event showcasing traditionally made games, its downloadable services, and new networking features.

The Natal, and experimental interface design will have a large space in our gaming futures. And it is my hope that it will be a bright one. But it won't be the be all and end all of gaming, and a quick look the hyperbole that is E3 should remind us of that. So please, let's be sober about this.

[Sweating Bullets]

Personally I think it's too late for Microsoft to take away Nintendo's control on the casual gamers.

[Lazlow]

On the plus side, this tech would be a great platform for the ultimate body building simulator. PUMPING IRON: THE GAME

Probably get RC'ed for drug use though :p

[Second]

It really amazes me how people can be sucked in to the hype so easily. We all know that 90% of the stuff that comes out of their mouths is just PR bullshit. Let's just sit down, light up, chill for a bit and just see how things turn out, eh?

[Blob]

If Sony release an updated Eyetoy then well have a trifecta of motion control cameras. One for each system.
Natal could be interesting I might pick one up if it isnt too expensive and theres some decent games with it. Anyone gonna take a guess at how much it will cost? Soemhow an arcade with this camera being cheaper than a wii screams that M$ will still be losing money which kind of makes you wonder why bother?

[Second]

Whoa man, just chill. Sit back and relax. Let the hype roll on by and see it for what it is, man.

[Lazlow]

perhaps you shouldn't nep someone for simply having a different opinion to your own. anyway i have let it go. don't care nor did i ever.

Lex and UC1; two peas in a pod :D

[FrozenSoul80]

Anyone gonna take a guess at how much it will cost?

Wikipedia says US$200. Unless this is Minority Report cool I think I will pass.

[banjoeskimo]

I think Wikipedia's full of shit. Microsoft would cause an absolute shit storm if this was a mandatory boxed in feature for all new console owners, but existing owners had to pay the price of a 360 Arcade unit to get their hands on one. Besides, it's not like they'll put the price up.

My guess is they couldn't get away with anything more than $50-$60 US, and they'll probably try to bundle it with a game to make it good value.

[Lazlow]

It be cool in MP to flip people off.



































or show 'em ur dik.

[FrozenSoul80]

or show 'em ur dik.

Teabag them in real life.

My biggest concern with this is the voice recognition. I've had disastrous results with all voice recognition I've used, which I assume is because I don't talk with an American accent.

[Second]

It be cool in MP to flip people off.



































or show 'em ur dik.

I'm suddenly falling for the hype and getting VERY excited.

[Jay]

I'm suddenly falling for the hype and getting VERY excited.

For Lazlow's dik?

[Second]

VERY excited.

[JONO RANDOM H3RO]

It be cool in MP to flip people off.

or show 'em ur dik.

You can do this already with your Xbox Live Vision Cam :p .

Honestly at the moment I think its gimmicky. That Kudo guy doing the demo really annoyed me too.

However, when they showed the Milo demo I was intrigued and want to see more...

[Lazlow]

Can't blame him

[banjoeskimo]

My biggest concern with this is the voice recognition. I've had disastrous results with all voice recognition I've used, which I assume is because I don't talk with an American accent.

Funny you should mention that. Every time I've had to call Microsoft's hotline for RRoDs, when talking to both actual people and the computerised recognition system I've had to fake a Yank accent to get anywhere.

[AranchineD]

Natal Product #29 - Taking that mini-game from Shinobi where you throw shurikens at enemy ninjas and replace the button pressing with the actual action of throwing the shuriken

[Lazlow]

Natal Product #69: Taking the stick motions out of the sex mini-games in Fahrenheit, and replace it with the player thrusting into the air.

[AranchineD]

Natal Product #301 - Crimson Iron 3

[Gio]

I personally don't get the appeal, but any competition is good. And I think we can actually count on Microsoft to continue to deliver actual games rather than only non-games and "software toys".

[UC1]

It's the same as eyetoy!

Just thought this needed to be said again.

[Lex]

except that it's not. eyetoy was gimmicky crap that recognised only the most basic movements, and had to have the right lighting conditions.

[UC1]

Uhuh.

[AranchineD]

Microsoft is making this one, Sony is shit

[igotnewsuper8systemWRONG!]

Calling it now, the amount of paedophiles who own 360's about to go through the roof.

Dennis Ferguson says: Oh.. oh hey there Milo, why how are you doing today? Oh ok how about you just relax by the pond and take a seat, let uncle Dennis take out his penis and let off some steam. Oh Milo that's a very nice fish you have drawn....

[Lex]

Uhuh.

you're wrong, suck it up :)

[Blob]

Wikipedia says US$200. Unless this is Minority Report cool I think I will pass.

If thats the case its ****ed from the get go.
Ands whats with milo? Definately think that things been talked up something chronic. I like the facial/voice recognition idea though.

[Dukotoja]

should be very interesting to see how good this new tech is.

[FrozenSoul80]

I wonder how the facial recognition will go identifying the faces of identical twins, or hell, even similar looking siblings.

[Watchers]

I'll be impressed if it can tell the difference between me and a picture of a smiley face I'll hold up to it.

[Flaps]

guys for the last time its not new tech, its eyetoy!!

[aubergine]

Fixed title.

[Pauly]

i think the key here is to use this technology to enhance gaming, not redefine it.

[aubergine]

Hopefully we won't get a New Play Control port of Minority Report.

[UC1]

guys for the last time its not new tech, its eyetoy!!

Well I'm not really seeing any difference between the 2. Eyetoy can scan things into games and use them as in-game objects, and it can track flailing limbs pretty well I guess. New version has a microphone too.

[Sweating Bullets]

For some reason I keep calling it fetal.

[Flaps]

Well I'm not really seeing any difference between the 2. Eyetoy can scan things into games and use them as in-game objects, and it can track flailing limbs pretty well I guess. New version has a microphone too.

Ah yes but can you see the bottom of an avatars shoe?

[aubergine]

I'm sure there's something very cool which could be done with the Eye of Judgement concept too, just not Eye of Judgement.

[UC1]

I'm sure there's something very cool which could be done with the Eye of Judgement concept too, just not Eye of Judgement.

There was a video I posted ages ago, it was last year so I'm not going to bother finding it, but it was where a dude would draw pictures of objects on paper, take a photo with PS eye, then play a game with those objects. You can even use toy cars or whatever the ****. It just all comes down to what actual games they release, if Sony haven't given up on PS eye yet, I'm sure they're going to demo some of the stuff they've been working on in tomorrows conference. The tech demos are equally as amazing as post natal depression vaginas.

[aubergine]

The tech idea of EoJ was very amazingly cool I thought, it just seemed like the actual product didn't really function properly. By rights (I think) it should be something huge. Although maybe people are just fully over ccgs after sinking buckets on money into Magic:The Gathering for fifteen years.

[JONO RANDOM H3RO]

Ah yes but can you see the bottom of an avatars shoe?

Maybe you'll accidentally step in Milo's dog's shit.

[UC1]

Found some videos...

http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/desktop-vr-on-the-playstation/169289

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2007/11/14/video-of-new-research-conducted-with-playstation-eye/

[Natrak]

What I liked about the Milo tech demo was the implications it could have for interaction with characters in videogames.

[UC1]

You can track in 3D space with 1 camera if the software can detect 2 points, and compare them to determine if you're closer or further away.

[Creedy]

I care not for Natal, I much prefer a good ol controller.
Thank you

*EDIT*
Absolutely no interest in making my avatar break it's limbs either.

[Pauly]

the problem i foresee with making games in the same vein as milo is that we're still dealing with a 2d display.

[UC1]

the problem i foresee with making games in the same vein as milo is that we're still dealing with a 2d display.

Headtracking + Milo = awesome upskirt game.

[UC1]

If they can do headtracking without any extra perihperals (which I guess they can) that would be pretty cool. Sounds like that sort of thing is likely to be in the works I guess.

[UC1]

Well there you go. I wonder why they didn't demo any of that this morning?

[grimace06]

Interested to see where this leaves wheelchair-bound gamers.

[Xanafalgue]

Interested to see where this leaves wheelchair-bound gamers.

Gamings largest demographic.

[Lazlow]

Interested to see where this leaves wheelchair-bound gamers.

Seated comfortably.

[Nic Xtreme]

Hah, those Kotaku impressions were quite interesting - there was a dude nearby controlling some of the AI.

[Lex]

I care not for Natal, I much prefer a good ol controller.
Thank you


bite your tongue lex, bite your tongue

[Xanafalgue]

I have a feel something amusing was about to be said.

[aubergine]

Well, with sixaxis, this motion camera sounds pretty redundant, right?

[Blue]

I care not for Natal, I much prefer a good ol controller.
Thank you

*EDIT*
Absolutely no interest in making my avatar break it's limbs either.I'm not taking a stab here, but don't you have limited use of one hand? Surely a gradual move towards a controller-less interface, or at least some commands becoming gesture-based rather than button based, will be a good thing in the long run? Even if gestures only replace a few button commands, surely one less button to use on a controller is a good thing?

I think some people are missing the point of this thing, dismissing it as just another way to waggle. Personally, I'm seeing games on the 360 that still use the traditional controller, but in tandem with Natal. Character movement in an Oblivion sequel might be on the left stick, but character interactions are picked up by the camera, so if you're smiling at an NPC they will respond favourably to you, whereas yelling at them may scare them away or initiate a confrontation. Picking up and examining items in the gameworld might be gesture based, rather than holding down a button. They will hopefully use this technology how Molyneux has envisioned, as a means of getting a player more emotionally invested in a game, rather than just physically. Fairly realistic NPC and gameworld interaction, through facial expressions, voice, and gestures, could be a very achievable goal, with more demanding functions left for the controller to deal with.

This will be my last post on these forums for the forseeable future, incidentally. Enjoy virtual reality.

[Pauly]

you missed the point. it isn't being made by sony so it fails.

[Watchers]

This will be my last post on these forums for the forseeable future, incidentally. Enjoy virtual reality.

Best announcement so far, imo.

[Lazlow]

I agree, somewhere along the way he became the love child of Vin and Big Kev; persecution complex + grammar/spelling nazi.

Take it easy champ. Why don't you sit this next one out, stop talking for a while.

[grimace06]

Seated comfortably.

It's a serious question - where does it leave wheelchair bound gamers if full body movement becomes essential to gameplay?

[Lex]

well.... screwed I guess? :(

[Pauly]

it's not going to be essential. like i said earlier, the key here is to use this technology to enhance gaming, not redefine it. Blue's example of Oblivion was actually a good one.

[Nic Xtreme]

^ An Oblivion sequel would work so well with this, though it would be better on Sony's motion controller, where your two hands can work independently with a control stick (though I don't know if they have facial recognition stuff working?).

Facial recognition + control stick for walking/menus/other options + independent hand controls for swordplay, magic, item/environment manipulation = brilliance.

[punkgorilla]

It's a serious question - where does it leave wheelchair bound gamers if full body movement becomes essential to gameplay?

Molyneux claims that with the game he's working on you'll be able to play sitting down if you want.

Personally I'll reserve judgement on Natal until there's some actual genuine support for it.

[Creedy]

Heres your Oblivion sequel.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-playstation-3/50277

[Xanafalgue]

Heres your Oblivion sequel.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-playstation-3/50277

I fail to see what this has to do with Natal.

[Pauly]

because only sony makes fun, revolutionary, and appropriate technology for gaming.

[Creedy]

I fail to see what this has to do with Natal.

How does a sword based game work with Natal?
You hold thin air? Really?

Just curious about how games will work on Natel without a peripheral.

[Xanafalgue]

How does a sword based game work with Natal?
You hold thin air? Really?

Just curious about how games will work on Natel without a peripheral.

Why not? I'll swing my cat around if need be.

[aubergine]

There's also a motion peripheral in development for 360 by another party you know.

And I'd rather have a terminator 2 game where my ARMS are the swords.

[Creedy]

Why not? I'll swing my cat around if need be.

hahahahaha
Now there's a game they should make.

[AranchineD]

Use your own long tube, sword or cylinder shaped object, you could buy a 50 cent toy sword down at K-mart to play a sword based game.

[Xanafalgue]

I think games like Rez or Space Channel 5 would be beyond awesome for Natal.

[Pauly]

Enhancing controls by emulating devices and weapons is so not the point of Natal, not how I see it anyway. Emulating swinging a sword is lame even if it's a light sabre, the Wii made everyone think it would be cool and then Red Steel showed how uncool it actually is. Though tacking on a peripheral with a game and having Natal track that isn't out of the realm of possibility because the tech can do that easily.

Natal allows for a more in depth approach to interaction than just emulating a device that your character has. You yourself are now in the game world and are the character essentially, there is no controller, no peripheral and no barrier provided that the various capture and recognition systems are in effect.
and by being in the game world, this doesn't mean you have to run around your living room. this can simply track voice, or facial gestures. unlike sony, microsoft are trying to do something a little different from nintendo.

[AyatollaofRocknRolla]

The character interaction along the lines of Milo is where the potential of Natal lies. The last thing I'd want from it is it to be used for mini game compilations ala the Wii. I think there is potential for enhancing control of games though.

I think it would be a mistake for Micrsoft to try and take Nintendo on. They need to differentiate this. I think this is where Sony may have trouble since the average consumer associates wii with a controller that you wave around. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out between MS and Sony though. Nintendo won't be too concerned. They have a clear advantage in that the system has been using motion controls out of the box and Wii motion + should get decent penentration with all the games its getting bundled with.

[Pai Mel]

Funny no one has mentioned Dance Dance Revolution yet. It seems like THE perfect game to use this technology. The old dance pad only relied on your footsteps, so you could just kneel down and stomp with your fists and still do well. But now the game can see if you are actually dancing or not. Azns are going to go apeshit over natal ddr.

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2009/20090605.jpg

[Vindik8or]

Hey, guys, how about the implied discrimination in this? For a long, long time games have empowered people who are a bit shit physically, right through to those who have complete physical disabilities. Games aren't for those people now? To be good at the fighting game, you have to be at least passable in real life? Plus someone putting their foot through the plasma is just a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[Sweating Bullets]

bahahha that Penny Arcade strip was hilarious!

[Xanafalgue]

Funny no one has mentioned Dance Dance Revolution yet. It seems like THE perfect game to use this technology. The old dance pad only relied on your footsteps, so you could just kneel down and stomp with your fists and still do well. But now the game can see if you are actually dancing or not. Azns are going to go apeshit over natal ddr.

Hehe, so true.

Lets hope Activision don't get any ideas like releasing games such as Boyband: Backstreet Boys or Girlband: Pussycat Dolls :/

[AranchineD]

Hey, guys, how about the implied discrimination in this? For a long, long time games have empowered people who are a bit shit physically, right through to those who have complete physical disabilities. Games aren't for those people now? To be good at the fighting game, you have to be at least passable in real life? Plus someone putting their foot through the plasma is just a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Fatties will have to stick with playing Natal Tetris and Natal Minesweeper.

[Cicada]

That makes me think how great this would be for Microsoft's productivity ruining PC games. Natal Solitaire where you get to shuffle and sort a virtual deck of cards, or Natal Minesweeper where you have to carefully walk around a room, following difficult umber based clues, desperately trying to avoid 30cmx30cm square that contains the mine lest the shock of seeing your avatar suddenly consumed by fire and rent in twain cause a heart attack.

[UC1]

Funny no one has mentioned Dance Dance Revolution yet. It seems like THE perfect game to use this technology. The old dance pad only relied on your footsteps, so you could just kneel down and stomp with your fists and still do well. But now the game can see if you are actually dancing or not. Azns are going to go apeshit over natal ddr.

google para para paradise.

[Petarrgh]

Azns are going to go apeshit over natal ddr.

Azns lol

[UC1]

So ah... Natal doesn't recognise black people o_O

[Lazlow]

Yeah, its like an immobilizer for your XBOX.

[adam_91vn]

So ah... Natal doesn't recognise black people o_O


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/Wollan/NatulalWhitening.jpg

[UC1]

Correction to earlier post: it doesn't recognise N'Gai, but does recognise other black dudes. So ah... Natal doesn't recognise N'Gai o_O

[Fenrir]

bahahha that Penny Arcade strip was hilarious!
Hmm,
Peter Molyneux has no credit with me - he must always pay in advance, cash only. I am completely impervious to him, so when he says that he's invented some kind of digital boy this firm assertion is refracted into harmless light. Illusions of the kind he proposes are tremendously fragile - it's hard enough to maintain them in raw text (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test), without the idiosyncrasies of the nested recognition systems in play with Milo. Please understand: I love the future, and I long to live there. I want very much to simulate a cognizant digital imp. But this man has broken my heart so many times that it can no longer contain love.
From here. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/6/3/)

Tycho's pretty much hit the nail on the head, really. I had been interested in seeing how Milo stacks up to Loebner Prize contestants, thinking no man would stake a claim of having created virtual person without having something monumental to back it up with - but maybe I'm assuming Molyneux's far-flung claims have a limit?

Maybe I was just jealous, and therefore blind. The Turing Test is my mountain. >_>

[McChimp]

Dunno if anyone's posted this yet, but I just found an article on 1up about Project Natal actually being the next Xbox console, albeit a 360 with updated hardware and 'Natal' functionality as standard.

[Pai Mel]

http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/video/clips/project-natal-demo-6109/1123102/

[Manny M]

Kudo thinks he's Bono.

[Creedy]

The character interaction along the lines of Milo is where the potential of Natal lies. The last thing I'd want from it is it to be used for mini game compilations ala the Wii. I think there is potential for enhancing control of games though.

Thing is Milo is nothing impressive what so ever, he is not an advanced AI at all. He has a pre-determined path that he must follow and you are giving opportunities to talk to him within set periods.
He only recognizes certain words and tone, you can tell him a joke but he won't understand it, he'll just react based on your tone.

Milo is basically an interactive movie, not very exciting.

[Stevorooni]

While I think it's a little early to be calling just how interactive Milo would be, I want to see how it works without a Microsoft employee interacting with it.

Dunno if anyone's posted this yet, but I just found an article on 1up about Project Natal actually being the next Xbox console, albeit a 360 with updated hardware and 'Natal' functionality as standard.

Hopefully they go the Slim route like Sony and release something redesigned that won't die so easily. Then let us send in our old xboxes and get the new model for free (one can dream)

[banjoeskimo]

I'm hoping it's a full redesign, ala the PS2 slim / PSP Go / DS Lite. The 360 could really use one, especially if the hardware has been revised (see: laid out in an entirely different way and not just a simple parts upgrade) and we finally see the end of the RRoD days.

Here's a thought though. Microsoft has said that they want to be the Natal launch to be significant, on par with a full console launch in fact, to the extent that they're willing to delay release of Natal's hardware until there's at least a small stock of games to release alongside it.

Well, if they're going all out for this and it's not just a hardware launch, what else might they do if they're essentially relaunching the console? This is just pure conjecture on my part, and in no way supported by any evidence, but it occurred to me that later this year Microsoft will be launching Games On Demand, a service where you can simply buy full disc titles and download them to your HDD. No box, disc or game store required. What if that's the direction they want to go? What if this re-launched 360 ends up being the console equivalent of the PSP Go and it's online only, with a decent sized HDD? If anyone could pull it off, it'd be Microsoft. Just a thought.

[JONO RANDOM H3RO]

If that happened us Aussies would be well and truly screwed, what with our inferior internets :( .

[Creedy]

While I think it's a little early to be calling just how interactive Milo would be, I want to see how it works without a Microsoft employee interacting with it.

People have reported about it including Eurogamer.

[Watchers]

Creedy, if Microsoft were giving away puppies while Sony were raping your daughter, you'd still find fault with M$ and praise Sony. No-one cares what you think.

[Blob]

Creedy, if Microsoft were giving away puppies while Sony were raping your daughter, you'd still find fault with M$ and praise Sony. No-one cares what you think.

I kind of agree with him. The AI is scripted, it has to be no matter how big its vocabulary and scripting is. As cool as it sounds having characters like Milo on a game like Oblivion would take a lot of effort and possibly require blu ray sized discs for data. This whole system is a wait and see situation, we all know how well the original wiimote turned out....

[Pai Mel]

Can I get it in a Mila form instead?

[Dr Skinnybones]

Thing is Milo is nothing impressive what so ever, he is not an advanced AI at all. He has a pre-determined path that he must follow and you are giving opportunities to talk to him within set periods.
He only recognizes certain words and tone, you can tell him a joke but he won't understand it, he'll just react based on your tone.

Milo is basically an interactive movie, not very exciting.

The potential for greater immersion is exciting I think. Granted it's smoke and mirrors, but an entertaining trick is still entertaining.

[aubergine]

I'm hoping it's a full redesign, ala the PS2 slim / PSP Go / DS Lite. The 360 could really use one, especially if the hardware has been revised (see: laid out in an entirely different way and not just a simple parts upgrade) and we finally see the end of the RRoD days.

Here's a thought though. Microsoft has said that they want to be the Natal launch to be significant, on par with a full console launch in fact, to the extent that they're willing to delay release of Natal's hardware until there's at least a small stock of games to release alongside it.

Well, if they're going all out for this and it's not just a hardware launch, what else might they do if they're essentially relaunching the console? This is just pure conjecture on my part, and in no way supported by any evidence, but it occurred to me that later this year Microsoft will be launching Games On Demand, a service where you can simply buy full disc titles and download them to your HDD. No box, disc or game store required. What if that's the direction they want to go? What if this re-launched 360 ends up being the console equivalent of the PSP Go and it's online only, with a decent sized HDD? If anyone could pull it off, it'd be Microsoft. Just a thought.

I actually think this new console launch rumour might be a misconception based on an M$ internal memo or something, because they have been developing this idea of relaunching the same console every couple of years. It grew out of the spring updates for the dashboard, and they really started talking about it in terms of soft relaunches with the major dash remake just recently. "We could conceivably do this again and again, giving people New Xbox Experiences without having to put out a new chunk of hardware every x years, to increase the longetivity of the hardware." (a "words to that effect" quote that I remember reading in many NXE related interviews and articles".

It would certainly fit that they might - they should! - plan to release something as big as a whole new control scheme (useful for menu navigation, so it could be a major part of the NEXT NXE update) as another soft relaunch.

This is not to say that I wouldn't be much happier to see a slim 360 appear. I highly doubt they will launch a new generation of hardware though, I think they'd be nuts to, but a smaller, better made 360 with Natal bundled as standard would make total sense if also launching it as an NXE type update to existing users (who could choose to buy the new camera or not.)

I also really like the sound of them launching it with some well-realised games in tow. Nintendo could learn from this (rather than waiting for a year or two after an otherwise interesting hardware release to drop some actual games on it.)

[banjoeskimo]

I agree wholeheartedly. I think splitting the userbase in terms of a significant hardware upgrade that would change how the games actually run would be a mistake, but as demonstrated with other hardware revisions (DSi, PSP Go, 360 getting HDMI) it is possible to deliver significant updates without causing the same shift that a whole new console would.

Mostly I'm just excited at the prospect of 360 hardware that's been redesigned from the ground up to avoid RRoD problems entirely. I'd be stunned if they didn't use this as an opportunity to fix the problem completely, since it's cost them so much in terms of actual dollars, and the fact that the RRoD is a well publicised albatross around the 360's neck. Given that fact I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped "360" from the name altogether and went for a new Xbox product name.

As for online delivery only, that's really only exciting depending on what country you're in. I couldn't see them doing away with disc delivery at all (not even Sony has been that ambitious with the PSP Go, they're still keeping the PSP 3000 and UMDs in rotation), but it might be a nice option that would drive down the cost of the hardware and put less physical strain on the system.

[incompatible with life]

I'm just wondering what they've done in terms of increasing the voice recognition. I'm a bit skeptical that it works as well as it's meant to. Then again, my skepticism is probably because of my experience with trying voice commands on my mobile.

I'm hoping it's a full redesign, ala the PS2 slim / PSP Go / DS Lite. The 360 could really use one, especially if the hardware has been revised (see: laid out in an entirely different way and not just a simple parts upgrade) and we finally see the end of the RRoD days.
That is assuming that we know exactly what causes RRoD and that we prevent further causes in a revised hardware.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think splitting the userbase in terms of a significant hardware upgrade that would change how the games actually run would be a mistake, but as demonstrated with other hardware revisions (DSi, PSP Go, 360 getting HDMI) it is possible to deliver significant updates without causing the same shift that a whole new console would.
AFAIK history suggests that splitting the userbase has had lukeward results at best (I'm tihnking for example the N64 expansion pack although there are certainly many other explanations for that) because you either go all the way and exclude part of your market or you try to cater for everything and impair the experience. As I understand it though, the PSP Go doesn't fundamentaly change the way it's played, just how it's used. As for the DSi, I don't think it's quite been out long enough to see what impact it'll have, but I imagine it's really Nintendo hedging their bets like they did with DS/GBA and once it's well established enough they'll just pull the plug on the DS.

[Vindik8or]

It is highly unlikely that we will see another generation of consoles out of either Sony or Microsoft for another 10 years. They have both lost considerable amounts of money on their last two consoles and when combined with pressure over retooling costs from 3rd party developers, they are most likely to stick with these for quite some time before committing to completely new hardware. I certainly wouldn't rule out re-releases of current hardware and minor upgrades, but it seems like advanced peripheral functions like those of this system will be more the kind of development we'll see for quite some time.

Of course Nintendo are in a position to do whatever the f*** they like. Who knows, they might even have the capital to bring out something that is on par with the current generation's average hardware (lol).

[Pai Mel]

I sincerely hope so. I wish to buy less hardware and peripherals and just concentrate on building up a library of games from now on.