The forums are back! Discuss changes

[Slippery]

So Hyper is finally back, what do people think of the removal of pep and post counts?

I was all for it, and whilst the left hand side of my screen looks a little bit empty now I look forward to seeing how it goes.

I think this is all part of /'s plan to not give me the pep he owes me for buying Valkyria Chronicles :p

[Stevorooni]

Someone better go and check on Blake, he shouldn't be left alone once he finds out that pep is gone.

I for one am glad its gone, while I did whore around for it I did it in good fun.

Now I need another forum thing to measure myself against others...


EDIT

Hey I don't seem to have a custom title anymore. :(

[AranchineD]

People, people, there's an easy way to record post count!

-------------------------------

Total Posts: 213



Just have to update every post I make! >_>

[Maxi]

As long as Aubergine and Starscream are de-modded, then this place will be a wonderful garden of Eden again.

Are they de-modded?

[Stevorooni]

They are no longer mods by the looks of it



THEY'RE ADMINS

[Slippery]

If you click someones name you can see their post count.

Mine is 150... go figure

[Maxi]

They are no longer mods by the looks of it



THEY'RE ADMINS

Alright, this place just got worse!

See ya!

[Stevorooni]

Alright, this place just got worse!

See ya!

I think it's only temporary. They needed to be admins so they could access the place while it was switched off.

[JONO RANDOM H3RO]

I think its a good thing :) . Maybe there could be a like or dislike button similar to facebook? Something which isn't a continuous tally obviously.

Ah well its good the forums are back :D

[AranchineD]

Also let's get some tag abusing people!

[Stevorooni]

I noticed that we can create Groups for people to join. I'm predicting some gang wars

[AranchineD]

I noticed that we can create Groups for people to join. I'm predicting some gang wars

Stevo, does the forum let you put a picture up and a group description up for your group? The group feature is already kinda nerfed because you can't create group discussion threads, you can only post general group messages. :(

[Stevorooni]

There's a description but I can't see an option for a picture besides just posting them in a message

[SOX]

Well I feel betrayed. I was waiting for the forums to come back online with something resembling PCPP's - an actual website with the forum coming off it.
Instead its an empty forum with all my posts gone.

If there was ever a time to leave the community I'm thinking this is it.

[Watchers]

Everybody r admin.

[AranchineD]

I prefer going by numbers of friends.

I have five!

[JimmyKane]

Well all the mods are admins, so we need new mods.

I nominate myself, IRS and Aran.

[Watchers]

Your $50 is in the mail, Aran.

[AranchineD]

Your $50 is in the mail, Aran.

Prompt payment, I like that.

Also you signed up just as my "Aran will also be your wingman for a night" offer expired. Congratulations, this card can be used at any time before March 30 2006.

[FrozenSoul80]

Prompt payment, I like that.

Also you signed up just as my "Aran will also be your wingman for a night" offer expired. Congratulations, this card can be used at any time before March 30 2006.

I'm sure that's not problem, all mods have access to a time machine.

[Choabac]

Well I feel betrayed. I was waiting for the forums to come back online with something resembling PCPP's - an actual website with the forum coming off it.
Instead its an empty forum with all my posts gone.

If there was ever a time to leave the community I'm thinking this is it.

The website is in the pipeline. The immediate goal was to have the forum up and running again.

[AranchineD]

I'm sure that's not problem, all mods have access to a time machine.

THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU GO BACK IN TIME AND STOP HYPER BEING HACKED!

You guys are terrible Time Lords.

[FrozenSoul80]

THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU GO BACK IN TIME AND STOP HYPER BEING HACKED!

You guys are terrible Time Lords.

Our time machine was hacked so it only goes forward. That's why it took us two weeks longer than it should have to get the forum back up >_>

[Cerebral]

lol, no pep or postcount. What are we, 12?

[JimmyKane]

You don't understand how time works. there are some events that are fixed in time. It's like a ball of gooey, timey-wimey stuff.

[AranchineD]

Also is it possible at all to allow us to subscribe to the Social Groups, so that they show up in our UserCP, and we can easily see if there's a new post in them or not?

[Choabac]

Also is it possible at all to allow us to subscribe to the Social Groups, so that they show up in our UserCP, and we can easily see if there's a new post in them or not?

All the permissions for social groups are set to on, except for not being able to delete own social groups, and not being able to post messages in groups that a person is not a member of.

[Jay]

lol, no pep or postcount. What are we, 12?

Someone decided to hack the forums for shits and giggles, so maybe some of us are. :p

[Fenrir]

Can live with no postcount or rep, but joindate too? ffs

[AranchineD]

All the permissions for social groups are set to on, except for not being able to delete own social groups, and not being able to post messages in groups that a person is not a member of.

Oh, I see the problem, this forum version isn't as up-to-date as the one on UYAC, subscribing to groups and making threads within groups is probably a feature of later vBulletin versions.

Never mind me, everything ok!

[Stevorooni]

Can live with no postcount or rep, but joindate too? ffs



It makes it harder to spot noobs and shun them.

Although lack of avatar and never seeing their names before should be a pretty good clue

[Jay]

I still don't have an avatar. I still don't know how to do one, and I would have a hard time deciding what to have if I did know how.

I'm such a noob my join date is Jan 2011. :(

[Fenrir]

It makes it harder to spot noobs and shun them.

Although lack of avatar and never seeing their names before should be a pretty good clue
tbh, my concern is that there is no longer any ostensible indicator of a Hyperian's investment in the forums. Come up with something, lest this place become little more than a sluggish chat room.

[Choabac]

Oh, I see the problem, this forum version isn't as up-to-date as the one on UYAC, subscribing to groups and making threads within groups is probably a feature of later vBulletin versions.

Never mind me, everything ok!

Yeah, unlike PCPP, Hyper didn't renew their subscription. So this current version is the latest that can be installed.

I would imagine that when the front end site goes up, then they may look at updating to whatever the latest version is then.

tbh, my concern is that there is no longer any ostensible indicator of a Hyperian's investment in the forums. Come up with something, lest this place become little more than a sluggish chat room.

You can still check out posts counts and dates via their profile. We just removed it from under posts.

[faceless]

it looks really really dull though.

[Fenrir]

Yeah, unlike PCPP, Hyper didn't renew their subscription. So this current version is the latest that can be installed.
So in other words, you milked the full disclosure notice for all it was worth? Now we just have to find an exploit for 3.8.2... ;)

You can still check out posts counts and dates via their profile. We just removed it from under posts.
Not good enough.

[dinopoke]

What's wrong with having join dates below our avatars?

[Laveidem]

Join dates separate the seasoned forumites from the babies. :(

[ireadtabloids]

So what happened to all our old forum topics?

[HiredMan]

So what happened to all our old forum topics?

Most of them were merged and deleted beyond all recognition :(

[Spudzilla]

When can we display our post counts?

[Bronze]

There's no plans for displaying post counts.

As mentioned previously in the thread, you can still see post counts from your profile. They just won't be advertised like before.

[Spudzilla]

I... don't understand. This is new for me and I don't grasp new concepts very well.

[Laveidem]

Yeah so I heard you can't see postcount next to your abata, pretty cool.

[Spudzilla]

Leave.

[Stevorooni]

There's no plans for displaying post counts.


Is this like when Sony announce that there's no plans to release a new PSP but then they go and release one anyway?

* searches internet for leaked pics of post count displays taken on a camera phone in some overseas factory *

[Mike-Towns]

I think it's only temporary. They needed to be admins so they could access the place while it was switched off.

At least he finally got it.

Also; this place feels fresh and nice.

[sausage]

All the e-peen is belonging to us.

[FrozenSoul80]

All the e-peen is belonging to us.

Actually it's all at Bill's house... and Fred's house.

[Watchers]

I like how my post count is going backwards.

[AranchineD]

I'm aiming for a post count of 80,000 by tomorrow.

[JimJim]

Excuse my ignorance, but what brought upon these drastic (and possibly uncalled for... >_>) changes?

[fearofthesky]

Just noticed this...

Welcome to our newest member, couponheaven

Prepare yorself...for SPAM!

Hip-hip-hooray for the return of the forums! I think i was in the minority in that i liked the pep/nep system. I loved the positive feedback and dealt with the negative. But I can live without it.

[Pauly]

are we allowed to post freely in non-gaming sections yet? i just don't want aub to break forum rules in bullying me if i'm not contributing to the gaming sections.

[adam_91vn]

Excuse my ignorance, but what brought upon these drastic (and possibly uncalled for... >_>) changes?

Drama

[FrozenSoul80]

are we allowed to post freely in non-gaming sections yet? i just don't want aub to break forum rules in bullying me if i'm not contributing to the gaming sections.

Yes, for ****s sake post in Off Topic so I have something to moderate!

[Newton]

I'm happy with the changes. Now I don't have to worry about my stupid rep count not living up to my lofty reputation.

Shut up, my reputation is lofty.

[/backslash]

Excuse my ignorance, but what brought upon these drastic (and possibly uncalled for... >_>) changes?
Sometimes changes have to be made to make a better forum

[adam_91vn]

I dont understand the need to remove post counts. Rep, yeah. But there was not really anything to do with posts.

It is kind of annoying.

[Sweating Bullets]

I dont understand the need to remove post counts. Rep, yeah. But there was not really anything to do with posts.

It is kind of annoying.

It's still tracked in your profile dude.

[Second]

http://blogs.wvgazette.com/coaltattoo/files/2009/04/obama-change.jpg

[Australian Ninja]

It's still tracked in your profile dude.

I had a look at my "profile" to see what was different. Noticed that the post count seemed to be some randomly generated number.
Or it could be counted from a certain date? All i know is the number is pretty darn strange.

[Lex]

tbh, my concern is that there is no longer any ostensible indicator of a Hyperian's investment in the forums. Come up with something, lest this place become little more than a sluggish chat room.

you'd rather less chat and more dickwaving?

you really shouldn't care so much, it's hardly an investment in anything, you just made some posts pretending you could hack. no biggie.

[FrozenSoul80]

I had a look at my "profile" to see what was different. Noticed that the post count seemed to be some randomly generated number.
Or it could be counted from a certain date? All i know is the number is pretty darn strange.

It's your postcount from what remains of the forum. We had to remove a shitload of posts because the whole place was a mess, we were able to go through and double check some of the more important threads, so some of your posts will remain from that time. Other than that, everything else is gone.

[ThePhotoshop]

Hey, those funny green bars are gone!

[Pauly]

profile views is the new rep anyway.

[faceless]

you'd rather less chat and more dickwaving?

you really shouldn't care so much, it's hardly an investment in anything, you just made some posts pretending you could hack. no biggie.
you realise he's embraced this now as his character and it no longer serves as an insult?

[Lex]

you realise he's embraced this now as his character and it no longer serves as an insult?

I realise he took a hit to his ego to fit in. Which is also funny to me :)

[Cian]

I hate these tags.

Everything else is pretty decent, the new profile page in particular.

[Second]

The tags are receiving much abuse.

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

you'd rather less chat and more dickwaving?

The newbie is right!

[AranchineD]

I love how if you make a thread you can add FIVE tags instead of two!

[Kotche]

The only thing I looked at postcount/rep for was for deciding whether to purchase something in HAH. Used it like a reputation guide. I guess if feedback thread will provide a fair substitute (if kept updated) but I'll miss the 'at a glance' option that postcount/rep provided.

[Laveidem]

I can look at your profiles, but not mine. :(
I can't see how many visits I have. :(

[/backslash]

I can look at your profiles, but not mine. :(
I can't see how many visits I have. :(
Hmm that's weird, I don't have permission to access your profile

[Stevorooni]

no one can see the profiles of people in the noob group

[Choabac]

EDIT - Ah right, what Stevo just said. New users are in a moderated group, so their account is blocked from certain functions.

Once you been here for a week and have hit 20 posts, you will automatically be moved out of it.

[Laveidem]

Fair enough, but I still have no idea how many more posts I need until that day comes. :P

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

You have 20 posts.

NOW JUST BE HERE A WEEK, STUPID!

[Fenrir]

you'd rather less chat and more dickwaving?
I'd rather something that compels people to make decent posts, and settle in as contributors to discussion here. This is not ****ing 4chan, "chat" and "dickwaving" are about as useful as each other.

you really shouldn't care so much, it's hardly an investment in anything, you just made some posts pretending you could hack. no biggie.
Why...why is that relevant? :confused:

you realise he's embraced this now as his character and it no longer serves as an insult?
and
I realise he took a hit to his ego to fit in. Which is also funny to me :)
nfi what you're are on about; not entirely clear on what character I have "embraced", either, come to think of it. Elaborate?

[Laveidem]

You have 20 posts.

NOW JUST BE HERE A WEEK, STUPID!

I signed up a week before the forum was broken.

[/backslash]

I signed up a week before the forum was broken.
I can view your profile now and the joining date is correct, you've got 21 posts

I'd rather something that compels people to make decent posts, and settle in as contributors to discussion here. This is not ****ing 4chan, "chat" and "dickwaving" are about as useful as each other.
Its an administration decision for the removal of postcount&rep

[igotnewsuper8systemWRONG!]

I'd rather something that compels people to make decent posts, and settle in as contributors to discussion here. This is not ****ing 4chan, "chat" and "dickwaving" are about as useful as each other.


Can't you just hack it into the mainframe?

[Fenrir]

I don't even want rep and postcount back, really. Postcount probably wouldn't hurt, it's a pretty standard feature on most forums; rep was the arsecancer of the forums, though.

[Xanafalgue]

I'd rather something that compels people to make decent posts, and settle in as contributors to discussion here.

Really? 'Decent' is subjective, things start to get a little dull when people take it seriously; its a gaming forum.
Besides, I've been here for ages and I haven't made a single decent post. :D

[Laveidem]

Post counts aren't really noticed over at PCPP, unless of course there's an amazing milestone thread made to celebrate, and by amazing I mean teh_Shane's.

[Pauly]

actually these changes might mean the end of milestone threads. woo!

[AranchineD]

Hell no, I can still see when I hit 1000 posts and so on, milestones shall continue to exist!

[Gemerald]

Hell no, I can still see when I hit 1000 posts and so on, milestones shall continue to exist!

If I was a betting man I'd put money on you over Stevo, Blake, IRS and Laz to hit 10K first.

[Spudzilla]

It's Aran all the way.

[AranchineD]

Aran #1 Best In Province

[Stevorooni]

If I was a betting man I'd put money on you over Stevo, Blake, IRS and Laz to hit 10K first.

Yeah don't bet on me, I'm not the spry young poster I once was. It's time for a new generation to step forward while I just sit back and provide sage like advice.

(that actually means I waste too much time here so will try and post less)

[Gemerald]

Yeah don't bet on me, I'm not the spry young poster I once was. It's time for a new generation to step forward while I just sit back and provide sage like advice.

(that actually means I waste too much time here so will try and post less)

You're probably still adjusting to the new place and rearranging furniture or trying to fix up those ethernet cables though the house. If not, you'd probably be the dark house.

Where's Blake? I'm worried, the removal of this much green will surely cause some withdrawal symptoms.

[Fenrir]

'Decent' is subjective, things start to get a little dull when people take it seriously
"Seriously" is not what I meant. Wind the clock back to the days of the LXS, even - in retrospect it's hard to conceive that the mods actually cracked down on them.

I've been here for ages and I haven't made a single decent post
And remain devoid of notability for it.

[adam_91vn]

Not worth a new thread.

But considering that most browsers have tabbed browsing and post counts are there anymore would it be possible to reduce the time allowed between posts?

[Big Kev]

Loving the fact that rep and postcount have been disabled. I didn't mind either of them really, but without rep there's no continual posting of the same image over and over to be egged on by the same people.

And without postcount there's no shit milestones saying "Yeah, I made it to 1000 give me pep".

Although before rep that was never really a problem.

[AranchineD]

Not worth a new thread.

But considering that most browsers have tabbed browsing and post counts are there anymore would it be possible to reduce the time allowed between posts?

I agree, anything that allows myself to post even faster is something that should definitely be implemented as fast as possible. I mean, since yesterday, I've only made about 100 posts, that's terrible by my standards.

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q321/fishfishmonkeyhat/Temp/kevampire.jpg

[FrozenSoul80]

Hell no, I can still see when I hit 1000 posts and so on, milestones shall continue to exist!

Be warned, if it's shit I will have to feed you to the lions.

Yes, we have lions in the mod forum.

[/backslash]

Hell no, I can still see when I hit 1000 posts and so on, milestones shall continue to exist!

Be warned, if it's shit I will have to feed you to the lions.

Yes, we have lions in the mod forum.
We're still training them though, for now we only have sea kittens

http://blogs.citypages.com/food/sea%20kitten.jpg

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

In their current state they'll be no match for my sea cocos!

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q321/fishfishmonkeyhat/My%20Photoshops/Final-Resized.jpg

[Gemerald]

Not worth a new thread.

But considering that most browsers have tabbed browsing and post counts are there anymore would it be possible to reduce the time allowed between posts?

^ We can't just serve it to Aran on a silver platter.

[Second]

So, haven't seen a mention of this yet, but thanks to Project Clean Slate (tm), Shorty is now a mod again. (h)

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

It was mentioned.

Clean slate and all, goes both ways and all that.

[AranchineD]

Heh heh, both ways...

Be warned, if it's shit I will have to feed you to the lions.

Yes, we have lions in the mod forum.

Any cougars?

[Watchers]

Just Jay's mum.

[Jay]

Haha, yeah...wait, what?

[AranchineD]

pics or gtfo

[dinopoke]

Pics = pep




Oh wai-

[PrattP]

So we're back.

Not sure I like all the loss, but if it's the only way to *really* give this place a clean slate then so be it.

Was it not possible to roll back the account to the previous day, or was that not wanted? Just wondering. :)

Ah well, here's to the new Hyper. :p

[Watchers]

Not possible. Probably for the best, though.

[PrattP]

Hah, I'd say so.

[FrozenSoul80]

Was it not possible to roll back the account to the previous day, or was that not wanted? Just wondering. :)

I think it had something to do with not being able to get a response from the IT guys running the server.

But having nothing just means we get to remake the awesome. It's just like being reborn, just without the messy afterbirth and strange people looking at you naked.

[RunningMild]

I think this latest instance of the forums being down is the final straw.

Permaban Fenrir.

[Fenrir]

I think this latest instance of the forums being down is the final straw.

Permaban Fenrir.
Not possible.

[Big Kev]

Could we at least tie him down and poke him with a stick? :D

[fishonthecarpet]

Holy crap, no rep or post counts. How freaking awesome.

[sausage]

......poke him with a stick?


http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/compdiff/selfdefe.jpg

[Spudzilla]

"Next, I eat the banana"

[Adios]

Personally, I'd like to be able to customize my profile with different colour sets and so on ala other forums I've ventured on... If I'm making any sense.

Too hard? Too easy?

[FrozenSoul80]

Personally, I'd like to be able to customize my profile with different colour sets and so on ala other forums I've ventured on... If I'm making any sense.

Too hard? Too easy?

This might happen when the Hyper website goes up.

[AranchineD]

Are you guys going to put the link to the PCPP forums up again sometime?

[Darren]

Are you guys going to put the link to the PCPP forums up again sometime?
We were asked by PCPP to remove the link.

[AranchineD]

Oh.

But they still have the link to here up?

[Darren]

Correct.

[AranchineD]

I like this plan, they come here and then can't get back. :D More members for us!

[Laveidem]

Conspiracy! I'm on to you and your evil ways Hyperians!

[Spudzilla]

We were asked by PCPP to remove the link.

Hahaha. Oh shit.

[Fenrir]

This might happen when the Hyper website goes up.
This may've been asked - but what's planned for the Hyper website, content/purpose-wise?

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

I think they should def bring back the four stories I did for it back in 2002.

That content is hot and relevant!

[TAT]

We were asked by PCPP to remove the link.
Incredible, really. If they keep rejecting external sources of members their magazine is going to fold (eventually; PCPP has, like one-fifth the readerbase of Hyper at best).

[HiredMan]

Incredible, really. If they keep rejecting external sources of members their magazine is going to fold (eventually; PCPP has, like one-fifth the readerbase of Hyper at best).

Next website says that PCPP has a significantly higher readership than Hyper (171,000 for PCPP vs 123,000). The figures are old, but I cant see PCPP readership plummeting that far in 3 years.....

Maybe PCPP is more popular in doctors surgeries or some such?

EDIT: links: Hyper (http://www.nextmedia.com.au/hyper/hyper-magazine.html), PCPP (http://www.nextmedia.com.au/pc-powerplay/pc-powerplay-magazine.html)

[TAT]

oh, lol, they don't need us afterall

(but that doesn't explain why back issues of PCPP are packaged with Hyper on occasion, unless there really are 123,000 unsold issues?)

[RunningMild]

So PCPP asked you to remove the link?

Why does every forum with any association to the Hyper forum look down their nose at it? First DM, then MJ, then PCPP, then UYAC...

[AranchineD]

Hey, UYAC only looks down on Hyper because there isn't any pep or postcount or join date. :(

[sausage]

Hyper is your deformed brother you keep chained up in the attic and when it rattles around the other sites stop sipping their tea momentarily in the lounge and look at each other with forced smiles and a nervous tic.

[Lazlow]

I'm not going to shed a tear at the lack of a PCPP link. Curious to know why though; feeble attempt to preserve some closed off gated "Utopia"?

They can have it. Was pretty sad to see some idiots still fanning the flames of a pointless console vs PC war.

I have to say Hyper is definitely one of the more open forums going around; very few restrictions for new users.

[Optimus]

All this baseless speculation is quite hilarious. I believe the real reasons are:

a) Hyper, as the mods can attest to, attracts more than it's fair share of spam bots. Spam bots propagate by following links, so the link to the PCPP forum caused more bots to bridge the gap and appear over there.

b) In light of the recent troubles here - which for anyone knows may have been automatically performed via a spambot - and due to the fact both Hyper and PCPP were running the same version of VBulletin, taking away the Hyper link helps protect the other forum.


Surely there's nothing sinister in the above.

[Stevorooni]

All this baseless speculation is quite hilarious. I believe the real reasons are:

a) Hyper, as the mods can attest to, attracts more than it's fair share of spam bots. Spam bots propagate by following links, so the link to the PCPP forum caused more bots to bridge the gap and appear over there.

b) In light of the recent troubles here - which for anyone knows may have been automatically performed via a spambot - and due to the fact both Hyper and PCPP were running the same version of VBulletin, taking away the Hyper link helps protect the other forum.


Surely there's nothing sinister in the above.

c) PCPP hates Hyper and dress up in their robes and chant "Death to Hyper" every night

We're all reading between the lines!

[Lazlow]

a) Hyper, as the mods can attest to, attracts more than it's fair share of spam bots. Spam bots propagate by following links, so the link to the PCPP forum caused more bots to bridge the gap and appear over there.


No man, that was us!

[Thraxas]

I'm going to fight the power by having the pcpp forum link as my sig :p

[Watchers]

I'm not going to shed a tear at the lack of a PCPP link. Curious to know why though; feeble attempt to preserve some closed off gated "Utopia"?

They can have it. Was pretty sad to see some idiots still fanning the flames of a pointless console vs PC war.

I have to say Hyper is definitely one of the more open forums going around; very few restrictions for new users.

Just in general, I find most of the PCPP users to be less mature and more prone to bad spelling/grammar, but also more arrogant.

[Laveidem]

Get the eff out of Rhubarb, Circlejerk haven it is, watchers you silly boygirl. :)
Go to Art Haus instead, all the cool cats lurk there.

[AranchineD]

And unlike here the art forum on PCPP actually gets used. >_>

[Watchers]

And unlike here the art forum on PCPP actually gets used. >_>

Same could be said about the whole forum atm, tbh.

[Surgeon.]

Just in general, I find most of the PCPP users to be less mature and more prone to bad spelling/grammar, but also more arrogant.

Not to mention that yesterday in the Adelaide Advertiser there was a picture of some chumps auditioning for the geeks in the Australian version of Beauty and the Geek. One of them was holding a copy of pcpp . Conclusive proof that everyone who posts at the pcpp forums or has anything to do with pcpp is a geek.

[Fenrir]

All this baseless speculation is quite hilarious. I believe the real reasons are:

a) Hyper, as the mods can attest to, attracts more than it's fair share of spam bots. Spam bots propagate by following links, so the link to the PCPP forum caused more bots to bridge the gap and appear over there.

b) In light of the recent troubles here - which for anyone knows may have been automatically performed via a spambot - and due to the fact both Hyper and PCPP were running the same version of VBulletin, taking away the Hyper link helps protect the other forum.


Surely there's nothing sinister in the above.
^The hell is the significance of this guy, anyway? Some sort of unofficial spokesperson for PCPP?

Just in general, I find most of the PCPP users to be less mature and more prone to bad spelling/grammar, but also more arrogant.
The bigger issue is the relative lack of personality over there.

[Second]

PCPP has a side video of the RAN 7 days in the Navy ad. They're clearly the winners. Why don't we have stuff like that?!

[Mike-Towns]

All this baseless speculation is quite hilarious. I believe the real reasons are:

a) Hyper, as the mods can attest to, attracts more than it's fair share of spam bots. Spam bots propagate by following links, so the link to the PCPP forum caused more bots to bridge the gap and appear over there.

b) In light of the recent troubles here - which for anyone knows may have been automatically performed via a spambot - and due to the fact both Hyper and PCPP were running the same version of VBulletin, taking away the Hyper link helps protect the other forum.


Surely there's nothing sinister in the above.

...sounds like Stargate.

[Ryan Hayward]

Not to mention that yesterday in the Adelaide Advertiser there was a picture of some chumps auditioning for the geeks in the Australian version of Beauty and the Geek. One of them was holding a copy of pcpp . Conclusive proof that everyone who posts at the pcpp forums or has anything to do with pcpp is a geek.

What do you expect from a computer games forum and why do you think the pep and postcount was removed from here? Its so that those who prefer to socialize and run amuck over discussing playing games exit stage left.
The mods from Hyper have seen the light and that light is PCPP.

[Watchers]

Then go back there. See ya.

[texta]

If the mods have seen the light, then why would he need to go back? Ah. I see the answer.

[AranchineD]

If this was PCPP Ryan's post would have already been deleted for being off topic.

[texta]

Though possibly at the PCPP forums if a poster compliments the decisions of the mods they wouldn't be told to piss off.

[Spudzilla]

What do you expect from a computer games forum and why do you think the pep and postcount was removed from here? Its so that those who prefer to socialize and run amuck over discussing playing games exit stage left.
The mods from Hyper have seen the light and that light is PCPP.

Haaaaahahahahahahahaha!

[AranchineD]

Bah, go back to your forum with a 'serious discussion' sub-forum then!

*posts in thread in serious discussion sub-forum on PCPP*

[Stevorooni]

Everyone leave Ryan alone.

Given time he'll get drunk, post some boobs then be out of our hair forever again. Just let nature take its course

[AranchineD]

Just let nature take its course

Sunrise, sunset
Sunrise, sunset
And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Yes, we have no bananas...

[Ryan Hayward]

Everyone leave Ryan alone.

Given time he'll get drunk, post some boobs then be out of our hair forever again. Just let nature take its course

Actually I'm thinking about settling in. You're all just gonna have to get used to me. Not like you can hurt me by nepping me anymore. ;)

Seriously though, I'm not that bad anymore. I only post a few times a week on forums, generally the weekends.

[RunningMild]

So a couple of posts just got deleted, with a message saying 'pep was removed for a very similar reason to this'. Can someone remind me what that reason was? I'm pretty sure the last time someone mentioned it, the nearest mod said they weren't even sure why pep was removed. I'm a little confused tbh...

[JubeiSaotome]

Because you guys were derailing a good thread with unrelated drama.

People need to get over ethugging.

[Lex]

Seriously though, I'm not that bad anymore.

I'll be the judge of that.

[texta]

So a couple of posts just got deleted, with a message saying 'pep was removed for a very similar reason to this'. Can someone remind me what that reason was? I'm pretty sure the last time someone mentioned it, the nearest mod said they weren't even sure why pep was removed. I'm a little confused tbh...

It's good that the mods are attempting to provide reasons, but it's obviously meaningless if you need to have read the deleted post or track down something obscure to understand the reason. It shouldn't be very hard though, the forum guidelines have 6 prohibited behaviour or content and it should just be a matter of putting the relevant head as the reason (eg "harassment").

[AranchineD]

My awesome FX-CreedyZ call is gone :(

[Stevorooni]

I'll be the judge of that.

It's true, Lex has officially been appointed as the judge of Ryan

[FrozenSoul80]

So a couple of posts just got deleted, with a message saying 'pep was removed for a very similar reason to this'. Can someone remind me what that reason was? I'm pretty sure the last time someone mentioned it, the nearest mod said they weren't even sure why pep was removed. I'm a little confused tbh...

People were being bullied through pep, that is the whole reason it was removed.

[Lazlow]

It's true, Lex has officially been appointed as the judge of Ryan

Some could says he's Judge Ryanhold >_>

[sausage]

OMG CYBER BULLYING WTFBBQ STOP THE WORLD HERE HAVE SOME MORE RULES RULES RULES....

I mean seriously; rep was removed for that?

[FrozenSoul80]

Pretty much. It wasn't really needed, anyway, back in Hypers Golden Age rep didn't exist.

[Lazlow]

The Age of Adzy... those were the dayz

[JubeiSaotome]

Lex was pretty much bullying in a post. Trying to look like an internet tough guy by ranting about rep like it was a fight club.

[Pauly]

The Age of Adzy... those were the dayz
if people mucked up he'd just shut down the whole forums. simpler times!

[Ryan Hayward]

I'll be the judge of that.

You must have been pretty upset when they removed the pep system?
I lost count how much nep I copped from you. :D

[Xanafalgue]

People were being bullied through pep, that is the whole reason it was removed.

You're kidding :rolleyes: What a pack of ****ing babies :rolleyes:

[Pauly]

You're kidding :rolleyes: What a pack of ****ing babies :rolleyes:
it was really only one baby.

[Watchers]

Lousy Aran. Ruining it for everyone.

[SOX]

I lost count how much nep I copped from you. :D

Probably had something more to do with the fact you got banned and couldn't log into your account.

[AranchineD]

Lousy Aran. Ruining it for everyone.

Well it's not my fault you people didn't pep me enough and I had to resort to killing the adorable little puppy to get results.

You only have yourselves to blame.

[Second]

And Jesus.

[FrozenSoul80]

And Jesus.

Watchers already blamed Aran.

[RunningMild]

Because you guys were derailing a good thread with unrelated drama.

So what does that have to do with pep being removed?

People were being bullied through pep, that is the whole reason it was removed.

But as I mentioned in the post that got conveniently deleted:

A. The people who were genuinely abusing the pep system were surely the vast minority, not the majority

B. Anyone who felt like they were being genuinely bullied through pep could simply switch it off

C. People can be bullied through PMs, so let's get rid of those too

Your rebuttal please?

Pretty much. It wasn't really needed, anyway, back in Hypers Golden Age rep didn't exist.

Back in the Rennaisance the Internet didn't exist. Times change, people change, and we can't stay stuck in those Golden Ages forever. ;)

[FrozenSoul80]

A. The people who were genuinely abusing the pep system were surely the vast minority, not the majority

B. Anyone who felt like they were being genuinely bullied through pep could simply switch it off

C. People can be bullied through PMs, so let's get rid of those too

Pretty sure I brought up all those points when we were discussing what to do with it, but in the end we still decided to remove it because rep also caused a lot of dramas. There was a lot of bullying going on behind the scenes, more than I ever realised before becoming a mod. In the end, rep is just a way of excluding new members so we removed it.

Trust me, we considered everything when deciding what to do with the rep system. Removing it entirely was the best option.

[Stevorooni]

C. People can be bullied through PMs, so let's get rid of those too


On the other hand people can also be praised through PMs which makes pep un-necessary!

I think the place is better without it, I'm glad they got rid of it despite all the pep scams I ran.

I now use profile page visits to measure myself against others.

[Second]

If pushing a button saying that a post is terrible can get you banned from a section of the site, then I'm glad they removed that button.

[Pauly]

I now use profile page visits to measure myself against others.
hey, that standard of measuring popularity is fine by me :D

[AranchineD]

Look people, join the Pep Club and post in there what posts you would pep if you good.

Good boys.

[aubergine]

Aran points out that one forum widget goes, a new one arrives. To keep ALL widgets inplay at one time would be garish.

[AranchineD]

Imagine if you could pep posts people make in groups. UTTER MADNESS

[RunningMild]

On the other hand people can also be praised through PMs which makes pep un-necessary!

But that's too haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard!

[/whinge]

[TAT]

On the other hand people can also be praised through PMs which makes pep un-necessary!

I think the place is better without it, I'm glad they got rid of it despite all the pep scams I ran.

I now use profile page visits to measure myself against others.
Why did they demod you?

More to the point, do you even realise you aren't a mod?

[Stevorooni]

Why did they demod you?

Because I asked them to.

More to the point, do you even realise you aren't a mod?

Yes I do, what exactly are you trying to say? I'm not allowed to have an opinion on how this place is run?

[texta]

I now use profile page visits to measure myself against others.On that topic, what's the deal with people posting pictures of hot girls all over my wall?

Look people, join the Pep Club and post in there what posts you would pep if you good.WTF? Have you forgotten the First rule?

[AranchineD]

Look, I'll be honest, I visited that group once and I didn't even read the rules.

[Stevorooni]

On that topic, what's the deal with people posting pictures of hot girls all over my wall?

At least there's no record of me falling for your trick...

[AranchineD]

I went for texta's profile picture.

I wasn't disappointed.

[Second]

You won't be anymore. (h)

[AranchineD]

I went for the picture that Second posted.

I wasn't disappointed.

[Fenrir]

B. Anyone who felt like they were being genuinely bullied through pep could simply switch it off
Hmm, I don't think that really addresses the nature of the whole rep-bullying issue*. It seems to assume that nasty messages/vandalism are the problem, whereas the victims* were probably just being scarred psychologically by that red square itself, and all the social rejection and outcasting from the be-all clique it symbolizes.
The black square doesn't really do much to address that; but I don't know whether the hard line of forcing kids** to get along or else that my primary school principal adopted back in the day in his enraged school assembly speeches about bullying is the answer, either.

*For lack of better terms.
**Probably very telling.

[Spudzilla]

Well, things are coming along nicely :):):):)

[TAT]

Yes I do, what exactly are you trying to say?
For lack of a less suggestive term, you couldn't be further up the mod's collective arses if you tried...

[Cian]

This has probably been mentioned earlier but...why can I still not change my thread title?

It's ridiculous, whenever I change it for an update it only appears when you enter the topic...it doesn't appear in the thread listings. :/

[Stevorooni]

For lack of a less suggestive term, you couldn't be further up the mod's collective arses if you tried...

My opinions are my own, they may be influenced by my time as a mod but that's because I've seen things from the opposite point of view so my thoughts aren't all one sided.

Your opinions are strongly anti-mod or against anyone who's had anything to do with the mods, so keep on following me around twisting everything I type into something else if it helps validate your bitterness.

[TAT]

My opinions are my own, they may be influenced by my time as a mod but that's because I've seen things from the opposite point of view so my thoughts aren't all one sided.

Your opinions are strongly anti-mod or against anyone who's had anything to do with the mods, so keep on following me around twisting everything I type into something else if it helps validate your bitterness.

So are texta's, it's just that he's studied law and is therefore more
eloquent than I am

[texta]

Uh yeah. Though unless we're talking about lessees assigning to assignors while the lessor passes the property on to a trustee held for the benefit of a benefactor, I'm not sure if my law study has helped a whole lot.

I don't believe we are in a situation where the mods get everything wrong or everything right and I would certainly question the judgement of anyone who did think either of those options.

I am reasonably happy with some of the recent changes that have occurred with respect to moderation and am posting here more as a consequence and even though the "Clean Start" was terribly and offensively implemented I have been doing my best to avoid "causing trouble".

Though I'm interested by the precedent that says it's okay to say that someone should be anally raped with barbed wire for eternity. To me that crosses boundaries, but apparently not.

[Fenrir]

even though the "Clean Start" was terribly and offensively implemented
Qualify this.

[AranchineD]

Though I'm interested by the precedent that says it's okay to say that someone should be anally raped with barbed wire for eternity. To me that crosses boundaries, but apparently not.

Look, I just thought it was an accurate description of what it felt like under John Howard's time as PM, alright?

[Slippery]

Watching TAT and Stevo fight is like watching your parents argue, except the divorce isn't going to net me more presents then I got before

[AranchineD]

It's like watching two positively charged ions

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6207/tipjar.jpg

[Lex]

Lex was pretty much bullying in a post. Trying to look like an internet tough guy by ranting about rep like it was a fight club.

that wasn't what happened at all. nice try though :)

[Fenrir]

^As there technically are no tough guys on the internet, at all, ever, this seems reasonable.

[FrozenSoul80]

My mum said I'm an internet tough guy :(

[TAT]

My mum said I'm an internet tough guy :(
People with green names are never internet tough guys ;)

[Bronze]

Not even me? :(

[TAT]

lol

One hug and you'd be putty in my hands









(but most likely Jeson's http://uyac.com.au/forum/images/smilies/bizarro.gif)

[texta]

Qualify this.I think I've said enough about it on UYAC, but the clean start should have been "We're having a clean start" rather than "we're having a clean start and you have to as well". When the ultimate problem was the lack of confidence us plebs had in the mods; attempting to force regular users to forget all the shit things the mods have said and done isn't the way to fix problems.

That said, I think most of the problems that I've had have been addressed anyway and the new mods are a beautiful breath of fresh air (that's not to say there isn't room for improvement).

[Starscream]

Jickle gave everyone on the mod/admin team a moderating pamphlet before he left so it's all good.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

When the ultimate problem was the lack of confidence us plebs had in the mods; attempting to force regular users to forget all the shit things the mods have said and done isn't the way to fix problems.

Right, because the way to get everybody being friends again is to alienate Group A by saying that they need to be accountable for their actions but Group B doesn't. A clean start means a clean start for everybody.

I take the same approach to these forums that I take with everything else in my life: Don't like it? Leave or do something about it. Don't just complain about it.

[TAT]

Right, because the way to get everybody being friends again is to alienate Group A by saying that they need to be accountable for their actions but Group B doesn't. A clean start means a clean start for everybody.
I've already said many times that there were MJ users to blame, and accepted that blame on their behalf.

[texta]

Right, because the way to get everybody being friends again is to alienate Group A by saying that they need to be accountable for their actions but Group B doesn't. A clean start means a clean start for everybody.By all means a clean start means a clean start for everyone, but you can only have that by free agreement from everyone to begin with. That's what the problem was.

[Stevorooni]

By all means a clean start means a clean start for everyone, but you can only have that by free agreement from everyone to begin with. That's what the problem was.

So they were supposed to ask hundreds of members if they agree with a fresh start and get unanimous (or >50%) agreement before going forward?

[texta]

So they were supposed to ask hundreds of members if they agree with a fresh start and get unanimous (or >50%) agreement before going forward?They were supposed to not make demands on what members should be thinking. You can't demand forgiveness or respect, but if you're forgiving and respectful you'll probably get it anyway.

At the end of the day, as with any dispute resolution, you have to ask what you ultimately want. I think the mods should be aiming to restore mod and member relations and I don't think that demanding that members forget all the bad things the mods have done was the best way to achieve that. I do think that resetting the warnings/bannings and the mods themselves attempting to start again was a worthwhile thing and should generate a lot of goodwill. But I think you lose that goodwill when you use your concessions as a basis to demand concessions on the other side.

If the mods do something just out of the goodness in their hearts then all members are going to view that as a good thing. But if the mods do it to get cooperation from a specific set of people (those people who'd been banned) then for anyone who hadn't received warnings or infractions that gesture becomes pretty meaningless.

[Stevorooni]

I think you're overthinking things, but whatever

[faceless]

i think the main problem is that he is thinking at all, it would be better if he just accepted the rules the mods passed down.

[TAT]

i think the main problem is that he is thinking at all, it would be better if he just accepted the rules the mods passed down.
Pep to this man

[HiredMan]

goddamn this shit is funny :)

[AranchineD]

NO YOU'RE FUNNY HIREDMAN


awww shit wicked burn ON YOU

[HiredMan]

:D :D

Internet dramaz!!!!

[AranchineD]

I'm sorry for my outburst.

Can we still be friends? ^_^

[HiredMan]

Of course!

[AranchineD]

http://www.hyper.com.au/forums/image.php?u=1468&dateline=1250254113

[HiredMan]

This shit is giving me a hard on.

/Top Gun

[AranchineD]

I'm going to bed, you'll need to whack yourself off tonight, brother. I'm so sorry.

[HiredMan]

Aran *sniff*.... you stink.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

If the mods do something just out of the goodness in their hearts then all members are going to view that as a good thing. But if the mods do it to get cooperation from a specific set of people (those people who'd been banned) then for anyone who hadn't received warnings or infractions that gesture becomes pretty meaningless.

Or some of the little shits around here will take it for granted and think it's their god-given right to be able to use this free service.

Edit: You keep talking about the forums like they're a democracy. They're not. They're free forums provided to supplement a magazine. Hyper will be what Hyper is and there will be dictator-ish decisions made. Just take a shot of concrete and get over it.

[texta]

Or some of the little shits around here will take it for granted and think it's their god-given right to be able to use this free service.

Edit: You keep talking about the forums like they're a democracy. They're not. They're free forums provided to supplement a magazine. Hyper will be what Hyper is and there will be dictator-ish decisions made. Just take a shot of concrete and get over it.No you're totally wrong. At no point have I made any reference to Hyper being a democracy. I'm fully aware that it isn't, I have no problem with that and in no way does it have any influence on what I'm saying.

Nothing I've said has anything to do with rights. What the hyper mods, admins and owners have a right to do or are legally allowed to do is totally incidental to the issues I have brought up. What I'm concerned about is the fundamental goals of the forum and the intentions of the mod team and the best way to achieve them.

Irrespective of how great the rights are that the Hyper dictatorship has, it's in everyone's best interests that there is a healthy relationship between the mods and regular users.

[Ryan Hayward]

They haven't picked on me yet of all people so something tells me they are really trying.
Give them the break they have given us, I'm sure they too have learnt from past mistakes.

[TAT]

Will you shut up about being picked on.

We'll see how you've changed by your posting behaviour, not by constantly mentioning that you were picked on. Christ.

[faceless]

you don't even post here dickhead

[Ryan Hayward]

Re-read what I typed, mate. Ease up.

[TAT]

you don't even post here dickhead
What was that? And this? Why am I here talking to myself?

Also, I need this question answered by a mod:

Does this forum allow medical pictures of non erect penises?

[texta]

I'm not convinced that Ryan was really picked on by the mods.

Does this forum allow medical pictures of non erect penises?Intuitively you'd guess the answer was no, but I don't know if the forum guidelines bear that out.

The relevant provision is probably going to be:

Prohibited Content

Obscenities, innuendo and general ‘adult’ content
We have a swear filter in place which censors the ‘f’ and ‘c’ words. Please don’t find ways around it. Be careful that any images you post to the forum don’t contain prohibited words. Excessive usage of obscenities (regardless of whether or not they are filtered) is not allowed. Similarly, sexual comment and references to "adult" content (eg. pornography and illegal drug use) are not tolerated, except when part of a mature and relevant discussion. We are not total prudes, but you need to keep your innuendo at a "PG" level.

Since pictures of penises can be rated PG in the appropriate context, and "adult" content is expressly allowed when part of a "mature and relevant discussion", I think a normal reading of the rules would allow that.

I think you'd contrast that to the express rules prohibiting use of the "F" and "C" words that are read down to allow posts that for example contain youtube videos that have swearing where there is an appropriate warning (eg spoiler tags). That appears to represent an intention by the mods to err on the side of allowing content that may infringe on the above rules. Hopefully for consistency they would interpret the rules regarding other material in that clause in a similarly liberal manner.

That said, I think if you created a thread posing as a legitimate thread in order to post a picture of a penis then the mods would fairly legitimately frown on that.



I'd probably argue that the rules should be amended to more accurately reflect the way moderation occurs. Either allow the "F" or "C" words (when part of a mature and relevant discussion) or actually start deleting their use in all cases. There's no difference at all between an image that contains one of those words and a YT video and there's no provisions that allow for the posting of expressly prohibited content where there is a warning (eg: http://www.hyper.com.au/forums/showpost.php?p=1101554&postcount=85).

I would also add a clause to the bottom of "prohibited content" relating specifically to the posting of images, videos and links. Something like:

Material not hosted at hyperactive
Posting images, videos or hyperlinks of material not hosted at hyperactive will be assessed against the forum rules irrespective of its origin


(tl;dr summary: Bored at work and it's this or Constitutional Law)

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

Also, I need this question answered by a mod:

Does this forum allow medical pictures of non erect penises?

I think a more appropriate question is why you'd want to do that? Sick of comparing e-penises and want to get onto the real thing? Or keen to get the non-medical opinion of forum goers as to find the growth you found the other day should be lanced off?

[texta]

I think a more appropriate question is why you'd want to do that? Sick of comparing e-penises and want to get onto the real thing? Or keen to get the non-medical opinion of forum goers as to find the growth you found the other day should be lanced off?His question is in response to the issue arising on another forum. In that case I think it was in connection to someone posting up a picture of a naked baby (in the context of it being their kid or something). In Australia such images would be rated G or PG (see for example Bill Henson's controversial images of naked children).

[texta]

No.
__

[Fenrir]

When the ultimate problem was the lack of confidence us plebs had in the mods
Really?

They were supposed to not make demands on what members should be thinking. You can't demand forgiveness or respect, but if you're forgiving and respectful you'll probably get it anyway.
Hang on, you expect internet sociopaths like IRS or javer to suddenly stop trying to troll people, out of a sudden left-field burst of internet empathy?
To clarify, I'm not saying the mods having accurate psychological profiles of the members they banned - but how do they know whether the MJ* mob are raving lunatics, or just misunderstood? It was one hell of a move to offer clean slates to everybody,

At the end of the day, as with any dispute resolution, you have to ask what you ultimately want.
and I'm not even fully convinced that the MJ squad is what they "want". The whole "clean slate" thing I interpret as "we'll forget your blazes and associated ACMA-related trouble, and even ease up on some of your antics, but you better give us a break" - considering the MJ guys aren't exactly prodigal flower children, and the sort of community the guidelines lay the groundwork for is totally at odds with the MJ spamtopia, I don't see how it's anything more than stating the obvious on the mods' part.

I'm not even convinced that it's in Hyper's (Next Media's, etc) best interests to be running this forum. There're just under 4000 members registered here, maybe a hundred or so showing up regularly - and how many of them buy the magazine, or generate any income for Next at all?
The fabled front-end is potentially a worse strategy. Whilst the web presents a very real threat to print media, a magazine starting up a web presence itself is just as likely to cannibalize magazine sales with a service that may not even generate revenue, exacerbating that threat. If Next are interested in tackling the web threat, the entire focus of the magazine probably needs to be rethought first, and a web strategy should be aimed at either generating revenue itself, or bolstering magazine sales (and this may not even be possible). Some sort of online community is probably helpful there, but I don't see how nurturing the MJ crowd could really help.

*Referring to MJ as UYAC was only really an idea when the decision was being made.

What I'm concerned about is the fundamental goals of the forum and the intentions of the mod team and the best way to achieve them.

Irrespective of how great the rights are that the Hyper dictatorship has, it's in everyone's best interests that there is a healthy relationship between the mods and regular users.
Sure, conducive to nurturing a healthy community, etc, I think Bean established this one.

Take into consideration what I've said above, though.

Since pictures of penises can be rated PG in the appropriate context, and "adult" content is expressly allowed when part of a "mature and relevant discussion", I think a normal reading of the rules would allow that.
You don't think many members here are likely to engage in a discussion meeting that criteria, do you? They tend to despise multi-quote citathons.

[AranchineD]

That's because multi-quote citathons are a shit way to discuss anything and just dilute the main points anyone was originally trying to make. Unless, of course, you're quoting multiple posts, which is fine, breaking down a person's post into a number of parts and quotes and then responding to them individually one by one is just dull for everyone.

[aubergine]

I can no longer see texta's posts thank god, but I'll freely advise anyone not to argue with him about his lunatic assertions because he exists only to perpetuate arguments.

This is lawyer-practice for him - he plans to be the scumbag kind who make money from perpetuating conflict, no doubt while charging the tax-payer hourly, with the occasional "slipped on a pickle at McDonald's" trumped-up clititigation to fund his "charity" group of care-workers who are trained to steal pennies from the purses of old women.

[Fenrir]

he exists only to perpetuate arguments.
As do I, tbh. As soon as one side starts looking too underdog-esque, I tend to leap forth in defence of it.

[aubergine]

As do I, tbh. As soon as one side starts looking too underdog-esque, I tend to leap forth in defence of it.

Fair enough, just so long as you know what you're getting into. Don't expect to make a difference.

That should be the new Nike motto:
"Don't expect to make a difference, just do it, fenrir."

[Fenrir]

There's something wrong with me. I won't work a nine-to-five unless I'm doing something no other pleb could do in my place, but I'll happily blow my days in futile internet debates for no real reason.