Man or Woman?

[Lazlow]

After winning gold in the Women's 800m at the World Athletic Championships Caster Semenya's gender has come under scrutiny. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/aug/19/caster-semenya-800m-world-athletics-championships-gender)

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/6154/germanyathleticsworldss.jpg


Really nothing feminine at all about that figure. Even if they turn out to be female, there's surely got to be some pharamceutical assistance being used.

[Second]

It's Lady Gaga.

[adam_91vn]

I think the answer is below the word Toyota

[Second]

Semen, ya?

[RunningMild]

I think the answer is below the word Toyota

You are referring to his pecs? :p

Funny how they never have this problem in male sports...

[adam_91vn]

Semen, ya?


Ya .

[Xanafalgue]

I bet she has an enlarged clitoris.

[sausage]

Full vaginal pics of said athlete or GTFO.

[Lazlow]

In a move that surprises no one the race (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/aug/23/caster-semenya-athletics-gender) card has (http://www.thetimes.co.za/Sport/Article.aspx?id=1054915) been played. (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=nw20090824141542868C900304)

[texta]

The whole thing has been pretty terribly handled.

The accusation isn't that she's a man pretending to be a woman. It's that she's got some kind of birth defect that means externally she looks like a woman but internally she has male reproductive organs.

So either it's found that she's a woman and she has to deal with being accused of being a man (I'm told girls don't like that) or she along with the whole world finds out that she's really a man. Regardless of the outcome she's going to need a lot of therapy.

[Stevorooni]

Some women just look like blokes

[Lazlow]

also read an article claiming that blood tests indicate high levels of testosterone. Which, if indeed female, indicates either pharmaceutical assistance or a diet that includes a lot of a lot of animal testicles ;)

also read semenya has been gender tested twice before to some degree so I can't see why they're getting so bent out of shape when the world governing body wants to run their own tests.

Yes some women look like men; but this one sounds like a man, has very little femininity, and absolutely blitzed the competition. Not saying they are a man, but I can't blame them for wanting to check.

The previous womens 800m record holder was quite the beast herself

[Second]

Some chicks have dicks. DEAL WITH IT, *******!

[Ad-Rock]

woman

[sausage]

God created her to test our faith in the Lord Jesus Our Saviour.

[Stevorooni]

So it turns out that she's a hermaphrodite (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26056981-401,00.html)

[AranchineD]

And now it's hot!

[sausage]

Best headline of the year so far.

[Fenrir]

It is believed Semenya is unaware the tests identify her as an hermaphrodite.
...what?

[Vindik8or]

So it turns out that she's a hermaphrodite (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26056981-401,00.html)

And there you have it - the biggest discrimination in the sports world. 'Male' and 'female' designations, when you're neither you don't get to play and don't you dare try and think that gender is a social construct.

Also 'hermaphrodite' is a ridiculous designation, it is neither medical nor is there any described cases of a true hermaphrodite. Sexual designation disorders come in a very wide number of variations that run the gamut from almost-male to almost-female, none of them being completely both.

[sausage]

Hell yeah vin, I'd believe you any day over........ *checks*....... some "medical tests" pfft.

And what are "testes" anyway? Pfft, sounds like hokum to me maw pass the lamb knuckle I need to change the oil in the commodore before heading down to the offy for a slab of piss.

[Vindik8or]

What exactly are you taking issue with? I'm not disagreeing with the test(es) results, just the idiotic reporting of it.

[sausage]

Probably the thrust of your first sentence; which wouldn't mean anything to the majority since they are dumb and anyway this whole story is retarded.

Poor mitch; can't even turn out for the Gay Games.

[Lazlow]

Love the comments though;

Why would South Africans respond savagely and not just severely?! Your choice of words are poor or accurately portray your unconscious mind.

Classic.

From little info is in that article, it would indeed appear that Semenya is a man with a genital defect. The lack of womb or ovaries, and undescended testes which in turn produce the higher than female levels of testosterone, would indicate that on a genetic level Semenya is male.

That article is some classic bottom feeding journalism. The fact they broadcast these highly sensitive details of a person's medical history, especially as they appear to be unaware of it themselves, is highly reprehensible.

[Vindik8or]

The genetic level is never the complete story - there is no male/female gene, it is only measured through the inaccurate system of presence of the XX/XY chromosome. The largest part of sexual assignment is developmental during the embryonic and foetal stages.

I mean, you reveal your own biases by determining that the presence of testes means 'must be man'. How is the presence of undescended, infertile testicles any more of an indicator one way or the other than external female genitalia that are also infertile and incompletely developed?

Our understanding of sexual designation is woefully inadequate, and making hard and fast determinations as a matter of fact is just one of the serious problems with the state of things. Medical science is realising that they really don't know enough about how sexual assignment does (or doesn't occur), society needs to catch up.

Food for thought - your favourite supermodel probably has a condition similar to this athlete, with undescended testicles but externally female genitals.

[sausage]

I'll tell you what vin; if I'm "going downstairs to fetch me some pudding" I certainly don't want to come across two half-shrivelled kiwifruits at the end of my tongue.

She's a dude dude.

[Vindik8or]

You won't, and you've got nfi.

[sausage]

lol so easy.

[Lazlow]

The genetic level is never the complete story - there is no male/female gene, it is only measured through the inaccurate system of presence of the XX/XY chromosome. The largest part of sexual assignment is developmental during the embryonic and foetal stages.

I mean, you reveal your own biases by determining that the presence of testes means 'must be man'. How is the presence of undescended, infertile testicles any more of an indicator one way or the other than external female genitalia that are also infertile and incompletely developed?

Our understanding of sexual designation is woefully inadequate, and making hard and fast determinations as a matter of fact is just one of the serious problems with the state of things. Medical science is realising that they really don't know enough about how sexual assignment does (or doesn't occur), society needs to catch up.

Food for thought - your favourite supermodel probably has a condition similar to this athlete, with undescended testicles but externally female genitals.

Yeah I was essentially operating under the basic knowledge that hormone producing testes = man.

The more I read, the more complicated the stew becomes.

[Super Mario]

I thought hermaphrodites were mythical creatures, like unicorns.

[Fenrir]

Well, that settles it - neither gender stands a chance against creatures of myth.

My sister suggested that Semenya should run the equivalent mens' event - which brings up the question of whether the classifications are strictly "male" and "female", or "female" and "non-female". It's probably defined a lot more closely in the rules; but I know a lot of people would object to the latter.
She then suggested that the chemical popularly deemed "responsible" for the unfair advantage of Semenya and the like, ie testosterone, should be rebalanced artificially, by "medication", to bring her in line with her female competitors. But er, what's in line? You end up converging on some pointless artificial standard, even if this weren't bullshit pseudo-science.

[Tonez]

Wow this is a ****ing disgrace. That poor girl.

I really feel sorry for her. Not only was she unaware of what is obviously something horrible to deal with at such a late stage of her life but she's had to do it in front of the world.

So does this mean she can never race again? How is that fair to her?

[TAT]

She should make a career in women's tennis instead as the third Williams sister.

[Azzaman]

She should make a career in women's tennis instead as the third Williams sister.

nah, she's not manly enough to get away with that!

[Lazlow]

How is that fair to her?

on the flip side, how is it fair to her competitors if they let her compete?

[Blob]

My sister suggested that Semenya should run the equivalent mens' event - which brings up the question of whether the classifications are strictly "male" and "female", or "female" and "non-female". It's probably defined a lot more closely in the rules; but I know a lot of people would object to the latter.

From my knowledge it is indeed classified as female and Non female. However the board has some system for classifying runners as non female so she can still scrape through as female as long as theyre satisfied thats what the testing says. I did something on this at uni last year and thats what I was told. Truth is I ended up dropping the class not long after though so there may have been more to it than that.

[Blue]

I thought hermaphrodites were mythical creatures, like unicorns.Aren't you the one who linked me to the two hermaphroditic women who possessed superficially female bodies, including vaginas, yet had penises where their clits would normally be? And each had their penis in the other's vagina, so that they were ****ing and getting ****ed by the other at the same time?

Wait, no, that was etnlIcarus.

[AranchineD]

Aren't you the one who linked me to the two hermaphroditic women who possessed superficially female bodies, including vaginas, yet had penises where their clits would normally be? And each had their penis in the other's vagina, so that they were ****ing and getting ****ed by the other at the same time?

Wait, no, that was etnlIcarus.

Man, that video got me through a week by itself, easily.

[Vindik8or]

I thought hermaphrodites were mythical creatures, like unicorns.
Strictly speaking, yes, hence my earlier comments. The mythical Hermaphrodite was the forbidden love-child of Hermes and Aphrodite who had the complete and functional junk of both sexes. There has never been a described case of anyone having a structurally complete set of male and female genitalia, let alone being fertile as well.

Well, that settles it - neither gender stands a chance against creatures of myth.

My sister suggested that Semenya should run the equivalent mens' event - which brings up the question of whether the classifications are strictly "male" and "female", or "female" and "non-female". It's probably defined a lot more closely in the rules; but I know a lot of people would object to the latter.
She then suggested that the chemical popularly deemed "responsible" for the unfair advantage of Semenya and the like, ie testosterone, should be rebalanced artificially, by "medication", to bring her in line with her female competitors. But er, what's in line? You end up converging on some pointless artificial standard, even if this weren't bullshit pseudo-science.

There is some artificial, arbitrary standard as it is now! I've always been perplexed as to how they draw the line between sports medicine and drug cheating. I mean, what is the real, semantic difference between highly-specified diet regimes that supply the necessary chemicals to the body for it to perform at its peak and improve that peak? I'm sure they load up with vitamins, and the rigorous training they undergo has consequences for their health and livelihood once the athletes retire.

[Kotche]

She should make a career in women's tennis instead as the third Williams sister.

HAHAHAHAHAHA oh snap, hyper sucks dick without rep.

[Lazlow]

There is some artificial, arbitrary standard as it is now! I've always been perplexed as to how they draw the line between sports medicine and drug cheating. I mean, what is the real, semantic difference between highly-specified diet regimes that supply the necessary chemicals to the body for it to perform at its peak and improve that peak? I'm sure they load up with vitamins, and the rigorous training they undergo has consequences for their health and livelihood once the athletes retire.

You should see some of the "Post your supplement stash" threads on Mixed Martial Arts forums. I always wonder where they draw the line between supplement and performance enhancing drug.

[Fenrir]

From my knowledge it is indeed classified as female and Non female.
This, to me, distinctly implies that women are inferior to men (at least physically), which I could see leading to PC issues.

There is some artificial, arbitrary standard as it is now! I've always been perplexed as to how they draw the line between sports medicine and drug cheating. I mean, what is the real, semantic difference between highly-specified diet regimes that supply the necessary chemicals to the body for it to perform at its peak and improve that peak? I'm sure they load up with vitamins, and the rigorous training they undergo has consequences for their health and livelihood once the athletes retire.
^This, definitely.

But also, this:
on the flip side, how is it fair to her competitors if they let her compete?

Far, far away from clear-cut. Maybe the whole point of elite sporting events needs to be re-envisioned.

[sausage]

*bump*


So apparently the UN is going to sort out this mess and bring the IAAF into line.

HOORAY! (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10597634)