Should gay couples be able to adopt? - NZ debates; bible thumpers have spoken.

[sausage]

Interesting debate in NZ at the moment about whether or not gay couples should be able to adopt children.

Interesting in the sense that I already thought gay couples had the right to adopt but apparently not.

Anyway, the acting head judge of the Family Court has called for gay and lesbian couples to be given rights to adopt children, just as a private member's bill on the issue goes into the ballot for debate by Parliament before possibly becoming law.

Well, this has certainly put a bug up the christians arse that's for sure, if the comments from this NZ Herald website are true. (http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/your-views/2009/8/18/should-gay-couples-be-able-adopt/?c_id=1501154&objectid=10592014)


Some lol comments from the NZ public:

No. God instituted the family as the fundamental building block of society when He create Adam and Eve and told them to have children. Note - he didn't create Adam and Steve.
Bugkiller


No. This is wrong. Think of the children, people.
Paket



From the sane section of society:

I think it boils down to whether someone is a religious fundamentalist or not. There should be a contract that gay people get to agree that religious fundamentalists can continue to enjoy the freedom of going to church, and religious fundamentalists can join in with the rest of society to say that gay people can be given the same rights as every other human being. Only fair really.
Thales





So, you have a position on this? As I said before I was under the impression that gay couples already had the right and I was comfortable about it to the point of not caring.

Therefore, I guess you can say I'm for it. No problems; shit, they'll probably do better than most of the heterosexual loser parents out there anyway.

[Stevorooni]

The standard family unit is dying, kids are being raised by single parents, siblings, grandparents, foster parents, abusive parents, the list goes on - how is a gay couple any different or worse exactly?

I don't care enough to march in the streets but if it came down to a vote I'd tick 'yes'

[Tonez]

I'm also all for it. My fiance's best mate is gay and he'd make a better Dad (Mum?) then a lot of parents I've seen. So long as the kid is shown love and taught to respect others, that's all that really matters.

My only concern would be that until the fundamentalists are educated enough to the point where they can see this shouldn't be an issue, there will always be kids out there who mimic their parents' thoughts and tease other chicldren for having gay parents.

[Lazlow]

On the other hand, a kid with 2 mums would be every guys friend :D

[Tonez]

On the other hand, a kid with 2 mums would be every guys friend :D

In the teenage years, hell yeah.

The only issue is they will more likely be the butch, guy looking types then the hot, would love to tap that types.

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

I though we could already eat the children of gay parents?

I ate some gay children when I was holidaying in San Fran once. When in Rome and all that.

[AranchineD]

I though we could already eat the children of gay parents?

I ate some gay children when I was holidaying in San Fran once. When in Rome and all that.

Well I wouldn't eat it myself, but wouldn't look down on anyone who does actually eat it, given that it was killed humanely like any other 'meat' animal would be of course.

[sausage]

Original story from the NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10591948)

Upon further reading it appears poor old ACTING head judge of the Family Court Paul von Dadelszen is being firmly hung out to dry politically with everyone from the real Head Judge saying it's "his own personal view" to conservative MPs saying it's a bad idea.

Sad really, since we are held up to be some sort of International PC bastion of left-wing anything-goesness.

Apparently not: (from the story) New Zealand is lagging behind many other countries and should allow both homosexual couples and de facto heterosexual couples to adopt children.

aMEN (see what I did there)

[sausage]

Poll up.

[Adios]

Of course they should be able to. I can't see any reason why they shouldn't.

My two cents.

[Meg]

I'm also all for it. My fiance's best mate is gay and he'd make a better Dad (Mum?) then a lot of parents I've seen. So long as the kid is shown love and taught to respect others, that's all that really matters.

My only concern would be that until the fundamentalists are educated enough to the point where they can see this shouldn't be an issue, there will always be kids out there who mimic their parents' thoughts and tease other children for having gay parents.

I agree with you on both points. As long as the kids are loved and looked after well who cares.

[Lazlow]

As long as the kids are loved and looked after well who cares.

Maybe... the kid?

[Clockw0rk]

After seeing all the messed up "families" coming through the courts, I honestly think a lot of these kids would be better off if their dropkick parents put them up for adoption and let someone else take care of them.
If that ends up being a gay couple, I'm fine with it.

[Blue]

[…] shit, they'll probably do better than most of the heterosexual loser parents out there anyway.That's political correctness to the point of stupidity, however.

It's ridiculous to even have these arguments anymore. Gays are people, and though their prancing around may get annoying at times, they're still far better company than religious fundamentalists, who should not be allowed to have children due to the fact that they pass down the gene of ignorance.

[sausage]

err, in a roundabout way that's what I said dude.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

I'd like to change my vote from "Yes, let them eat their cake" to "Yes, but only after stringent personality and financial parameters have been reached", but I would like to point out that stringent personality and financial checks should be in place for anybody wishing to adopt. To be honest, I'd like to see something like that in place for anybody wanting to have children, but apparently that's a violation of some human rights law or something.

[Tonez]

I voted "Yes, but only after stringent personality and financial parameters have been reached", but only because I'm pretty sure these stringent checks are applied to any couple wishing to adopt and so they should be.

We obviously can't stop people with no money and low moral standing from reproducing but that doesn't mean we should willingly give them away to these people.

[Space_Monkey]

I don't see any reason why gays shouldn't be alowed to adopt.

Anyone who thinks that a Mom, Dad and three kids is the best and only acceptable family unit is a moron.

Here's my claim to fame, I went to the March at fed square the other week to protest for gay marrage. I had a chat to those two tubby gay guys you went to India to have a surrogate mother for thier children (they were on 60 minutes).

http://mamamia.com.au/weblog/2009/06/two-men-and-a-baby-this-gay-couple-had-a-baby-via-a-surrogate-in-india.html

[Lazlow]

The thing I'm finding with this thread is that many opinions seem to lean towards anti-discimination against gays, rather than actually looking at it from the adopted child's view.

I'm not saying gays make bad parents, far from it. If this was a utopia, there'd be no discussion. But the fact is the ignorance exists, and that will place additional strain upon a child who has to grow up with same sex parents. I'll tell you right now, if I had same sex parents, growing up where I did my life would have been hell.

Placing a child in a same sex couple runs the risk of increased emotional and possibly physical trauma, especially during adolescence. Whilst it can be argued that can occur in any family unit, its certainly something that can't be ignored when you are placing a child in someone else's care.

[sausage]

I guess we're all assuming that the adoptive process will take all your concerns into account; as is probably (or should be) the case already with hetero couples wanting to adopt.

I'm not saying drop the toddler off at the nearest junkie gay couple by any means.

[Lazlow]

:confused:

That's not what I was saying.

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

I'll tell you right now, if I had same sex parents, growing up where I did my life would have been hell.

If you had same sex parents you might not have grown up where you did!

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AWESOME MAN!

[Space_Monkey]

The thing I'm finding with this thread is that many opinions seem to lean towards anti-discimination against gays, rather than actually looking at it from the adopted child's view.

I'm not saying gays make bad parents, far from it. If this was a utopia, there'd be no discussion. But the fact is the ignorance exists, and that will place additional strain upon a child who has to grow up with same sex parents. I'll tell you right now, if I had same sex parents, growing up where I did my life would have been hell.

Placing a child in a same sex couple runs the risk of increased emotional and possibly physical trauma, especially during adolescence. Whilst it can be argued that can occur in any family unit, its certainly something that can't be ignored when you are placing a child in someone else's care.

In all fairness kids will find something to bully other kids about regardless.

Whether it's being overwieght, having glasses, being gay yourself or some crap they made up cause they couldn't find anything obviously abnormal about you.

Having gay parents won't increase bullying but it will change what you're bullyed for.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

The thing I'm finding with this thread is that many opinions seem to lean towards anti-discimination against gays, rather than actually looking at it from the adopted child's view.

I'm not saying gays make bad parents, far from it. If this was a utopia, there'd be no discussion. But the fact is the ignorance exists, and that will place additional strain upon a child who has to grow up with same sex parents. I'll tell you right now, if I had same sex parents, growing up where I did my life would have been hell.

Placing a child in a same sex couple runs the risk of increased emotional and possibly physical trauma, especially during adolescence. Whilst it can be argued that can occur in any family unit, its certainly something that can't be ignored when you are placing a child in someone else's care.

As Space Monkey said, kids will find anything to bully you about. While it may give them an avenue for bullying, same sex parents won't be the only one.

My issue with that statement is the arguement that because people don't like it, it means everybody shouldn't do it. The vocal minority have a lot to answer for. Obviously there will be areas that you won't live in, but I'd like to think that gay people would already know which areas to avoid. From my personal experience, my sister's boyfriend grew up with two 'mothers' and while he has issues, they more come from the fact that his actual mother did everything for him and never let him learn for himself, not the fact that his parents were the same sex.

[Tonez]

The whole argument "they will find someting to tease them about anyway" has never washed with me. That may very well be the case but that doesn't mean we should arm them.

I think Lazlow's concerns are legitimate. My first post mentioned them. Until there is better education it will be hard for some of these kids. I definitely think the children's thoughts should be considered.

On the other side of that though, where do you draw the line? Should we stop black parents from adopting a white child for fear someone will call them n!gg3r?

[Lazlow]

My issue with that statement is the arguement that because people don't like it, it means everybody shouldn't do it.

Not saying that.

Just saying it needs to be taken into consideration, as a child could possibly grow to resent having same sex parents.

And whilst its true bullies will be bullies, I wouldn't put picking on fatties in the same category as the discrimination received by homosexuals and those related to them. Its something that can very well extend into their adult life.

Chalk me in the Yes, but only after stringent personality and financial parameters have been reached category. But I'd go so far to suggest there at least be some regularly counselling as well.

[Space_Monkey]

I wonder if a homosexual could adopt even if it was legal.

As I am aware with most adoptions the mother or father picks the adopting family, unless of course they have deceased in which case it might be a close family member.

That and there are vastly more people seeking to adopt than adoptable children.

With the number of straight couples looking to adopt would somebody choose a gay couple to adopt thier child?

This may sound horrible but a parent making an incredibly difficult, immensely painful and emotional choice would probably go for what they felt would give thier child a best shot at life. The best shot usually meaning a "normal" life.

[sausage]

I may be wrong but a VAST amount of NZ adoptions are SQUIRT-VOOM-NO BABY-SEEYALATER type arrangements by teenage embarassments who were too late to get a morning-after pill.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Space_Monkey]

Noones mentioned that if we give little girls to gay men and little boys to lesbians we can eleviate the worry of a parent sexually abusing their child.

Also given most gays and christians have a pretty volitile relationship we don't have to worry about them being assualted by a priest in Church either.

Keep an eye on dodgy looking uncles and we've pretty much fixed the problem of sexual abuse against children. :)

[Fenrir]

Oh, I have my concerns about boys being raised by extreme lesbian feminazis...

Should we stop black parents from adopting
Yes.


Hang on, that wasn't the whole question?

[texta]

I wonder if a homosexual could adopt even if it was legal.

As I am aware with most adoptions the mother or father picks the adopting family, unless of course they have deceased in which case it might be a close family member.

That and there are vastly more people seeking to adopt than adoptable children.

With the number of straight couples looking to adopt would somebody choose a gay couple to adopt thier child?

This may sound horrible but a parent making an incredibly difficult, immensely painful and emotional choice would probably go for what they felt would give thier child a best shot at life. The best shot usually meaning a "normal" life.I think your concept of adoption may have been unrealistically influenced by American sitcoms.

Most adoptions in Australia occur where the step-partner in a family adopts the child from a previous relationship of the other partner so that both partners have the same legal rights over the child they're bringing up together.

So when considering the question of gay adoption the best way to look at is that a person has a child from a previous hetrosexual relationship for which the other partner chooses to or is unable to provide any kind of custodianship (eg they're dead or have done a runner) and the person enters into a homosexual relationship where over time their new partner performs an equal weight in parental duties.

Now consider what happens if something happens to the biological parent (eg death).

Currently the non-biological parent has no legal connection to the child even though they have had as much to do with the upbringing as the actual parent. Is it better to send them off into foster care than to leave the child in the family relationship they're already in? I would argue firmly in the negative.

[Space_Monkey]

Currently the non-biological parent has no legal connection to the child even though they have had as much to do with the upbringing as the actual parent. Is it better to send them off into foster care than to leave the child in the family relationship they're already in? I would argue firmly in the negative.

Couldn't this be avoided by naming the gay partner as a God Parent?

[Blue]

err, in a roundabout way that's what I said dude.No, the first sentence was directed at you, the rest was not.

You said that gays would probably make better parents than most straight couples. That isn't true. You think that by saying that you're showing your support for gay people, but in actuality they should not be treated any differently. They have as much chance of being good or bad parents as straight couples. So what you said was an attempt at political correctness, but was most likely insincere positive discrimination.

[sausage]

I think you are over-analysing things.

[Zan]

Not saying that.

Just saying it needs to be taken into consideration, as a child could possibly grow to resent having same sex parents.

And whilst its true bullies will be bullies, I wouldn't put picking on fatties in the same category as the discrimination received by homosexuals and those related to them. Its something that can very well extend into their adult life.

Chalk me in the Yes, but only after stringent personality and financial parameters have been reached category. But I'd go so far to suggest there at least be some regularly counselling as well.

I think this is largely unavoidable, particularly with the first generation of kids from same sex couples. It can possibly be likened to migrant families of different nationalities. Two or three generations of this situation and no one will care anymore. As someone else alluded to above, it's also more likely that same sex couples would avoid living in certain areas as well.

I grew up in a very small country town, so I kinda get what Lazlow is talking about.

[Blue]

I think you are over-analysing things.No, I'm correcting you, so you know better in the future than to treat gay people any differently than straight people. There's nothing to over-analyse; it's a very simple concept.

[sausage]

That's just bollocks mate; the only thing you have changed is your post count.

[banjoeskimo]

On the subject of adopted kids getting hell because their parents are gay, I can say with great certainty that this can and does happen. One of my friends in primary school as the child of lesbian parents, and he spent years avoiding friends come to his house for fear of them finding out. When they did, he was often dropped like a hot potato from any social group he was a part of. This tended to die off a bit once he reached the higher echelons of high school, but it definitely had an impact on his teenage years and it certainly wasn't fun for him. I should also note that a lot of the hate came from parents of other kids as well (i.e. the "I don't want my boys playing at the gay house!"), not just immature children.

That being said, what else can you do but move forward? Trying to defend these kids from such injustices is all well and good, but it does nothing to fix the underlying issue of homophobia that the rest of the gay community is going to have to deal with. Any way you cut it, someone's going to be suffering. So, with that in mind I think the best we can do is move forward and hopefully get to a place where it's no longer an issue (hopefully just a generational change), and try our best to keep potential parents informed about things they can do to deal with such situations.

[Blue]

That's just bollocks mate; the only thing you have changed is your post count.Right … Either you don't even understand what I've said to you, or you're not accepting it. Too bad. I couldn't have made it much clearer as to why what you said was discriminatory, but self-improvement is your problem, not mine, so maybe look it up on Wikipedia. Until then, I don't see much point in partaking in any discussion with you, considering you're so unwilling to take any advice.

Eibach, I think it will just be a generational change. Our kids will probably think nothing of it. Hopefully.

[sausage]

Right … Either you don't even understand what I've said to you, or you're not accepting it. Too bad. I couldn't have made it much clearer as to why what you said was discriminatory, but self-improvement is your problem, not mine, so maybe look it up on Wikipedia. Until then, I don't see much point in partaking in any discussion with you, considering you're so unwilling to take any advice.

Holy shit are you for realz? What's the weather like way up there on the moral high ground?

Maybe what everyone has pm'd me about you is true.

[kirok]

There's no reason why not I mean though adoption agency's is how people generally adopt children and these adoption agency's do back ground check's criminal record checks and even credit checks I think, not to mention many other forms of screening.

So if you get a tick in every box with the adoption agency no matter who you are you should be allowed to adopt no matter what your life choice's are as long as you meet all the criteria.

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

Maybe what everyone has pm'd me about you is true.

To be fair, my PM about his vampirism was probably taken way out of context.

[Blue]

There's no reason why not I mean though adoption agency's is how people generally adopt children and these adoption agency's do back ground check's criminal record checks and even credit checks I think, not to mention many other forms of screening.

So if you get a tick in every box with the adoption agency no matter who you are you should be allowed to adopt no matter what your life choice's are as long as you meet all the criteria.Kirok making sense!

The apocalypse is just around the corner.

[aubergine]

On the subject of adopted kids getting hell because their parents are gay, I can say with great certainty that this can and does happen. One of my friends in primary school as the child of lesbian parents, and he spent years avoiding friends come to his house for fear of them finding out. When they did, he was often dropped like a hot potato from any social group he was a part of. This tended to die off a bit once he reached the higher echelons of high school, but it definitely had an impact on his teenage years and it certainly wasn't fun for him. I should also note that a lot of the hate came from parents of other kids as well (i.e. the "I don't want my boys playing at the gay house!"), not just immature children.

That being said, what else can you do but move forward? Trying to defend these kids from such injustices is all well and good, but it does nothing to fix the underlying issue of homophobia that the rest of the gay community is going to have to deal with. Any way you cut it, someone's going to be suffering. So, with that in mind I think the best we can do is move forward and hopefully get to a place where it's no longer an issue (hopefully just a generational change), and try our best to keep potential parents informed about things they can do to deal with such situations.

Kids are going to cop shit in school anyway. It may take a generation or two but the tolerance will start there, once the kids accept it, within ten years the adults will too. Funny thing that. I guess it has to be weighed up against there being no parents at all for the child.

I'd thought most lesbian couples opted to impregnate one of them anyway. Given the erroneous paedophilia stigma attached to gay men and their more pressing need to adopt, that's where the battle probably needs to be fought.

[Ryan Hayward]

If a couple with down syndrome or paranoid schizophrenia are allowed to conceive, then why should we discriminate at all if a gay couple wishes to adopt? Its hypocrisy otherwise.

[AranchineD]

If couples who are rangas are allowed to conceive, then why should we discriminate at all if a gay couple wishes to adopt? Its hypocrisy otherwise.

[Stevorooni]

So what's the opinion on straight couples adopting gay babies?

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

And have them turn both parents gay?!

[Xanafalgue]

Of course, the best children are bought up on a healthy dose of Bette Davis, Kathy Griffin My Life on the D-List and The Immaculate Collection.

[Xanafalgue]

http://www.drownedmadonna.com/images/2007/FriendsforLife.jpg


Babies first book :D

[Almighty Beanchild]

I mostly agree with Blue and Laz. While I want to see Gay Adoption legalised (and would like to adopt a kid someday) I also firmly believe the first concern in this issue is the welfare of any children. In a situation such as the one texta cited, the benefit to the child is obvious, but in a situation where a gay couple which to raise a child and adopt anonymously, it has to be taken into consideration whether they'd be good parents and whether their sexuality will adversely effect the child BEFORE you consider the "rights of gay people to parent."

This is a split issue for me because while I am for gay adoption, the way I see a lot of gay people carrying on about their right to adopt like children are a prize to be won turns me off a lot of their arguments. I know they're driven to the point sometimes because they want children, quite naturally, and it is all coming from a good place but that still bothers me.

I guess my answer is mostly: I do not know. I know I could provide a child with a huge amount of love and probably good parenting, but that isn't enough. I can't comprehensively answer whether I can provide the child with a healthy childhood and I'd want to know that before I ever adopted. And that is my thinking about myself, when I think I would be a good parent. There are gay people out there who would be TERRIBLE parents even without the added complications.

[banjoeskimo]

Kids are going to cop shit in school anyway. It may take a generation or two but the tolerance will start there, once the kids accept it, within ten years the adults will too. Funny thing that. I guess it has to be weighed up against there being no parents at all for the child.

Pretty much where I was going, sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Ryan Hayward]

I mostly agree with Blue and Laz. While I want to see Gay Adoption legalised (and would like to adopt a kid someday) I also firmly believe the first concern in this issue is the welfare of any children. In a situation such as the one texta cited, the benefit to the child is obvious, but in a situation where a gay couple which to raise a child and adopt anonymously, it has to be taken into consideration whether they'd be good parents and whether their sexuality will adversely effect the child BEFORE you consider the "rights of gay people to parent."

This is a split issue for me because while I am for gay adoption, the way I see a lot of gay people carrying on about their right to adopt like children are a prize to be won turns me off a lot of their arguments. I know they're driven to the point sometimes because they want children, quite naturally, and it is all coming from a good place but that still bothers me.

I guess my answer is mostly: I do not know. I know I could provide a child with a huge amount of love and probably good parenting, but that isn't enough. I can't comprehensively answer whether I can provide the child with a healthy childhood and I'd want to know that before I ever adopted. And that is my thinking about myself, when I think I would be a good parent. There are gay people out there who would be TERRIBLE parents even without the added complications.

Yet children are born into the lifestyles of junkie whores, pedophiles, women beaters and alcoholics. Seriously mate, I think your child could get over the gay issues as they arn't even one fifth as bad as what many other kids have to face up to each and every day.

[Almighty Beanchild]

Yet children are born into the lifestyles of junkie whores, pedophiles, women beaters and alcoholics. Seriously mate, I think your child could get over the gay issues as they arn't even one fifth as bad as what many other kids have to face up to each and every day.

They probably COULD but that doesn't mean they should, like I said I would want to be sure I was adopting a child into a safe environment that will nuture it despite the problems, not just adopt because its a milestone in the gay rights movement. Your argument doesn't make any sense. Of course it's not as bad as all of those things, but that doesn't mean its good.

[Ryan Hayward]

I'm confused, your environment is not safe or are you a reluctant perfectionist?
I wasn't referring to homosexuals in general, I was referring to you. You seem to have a very level head and quite capable of bringing up a kid with love and care as you mentioned. Yet you say it is not enough. Mate, my mother raised me despite being poor with 6 other siblings and yet I certainly don't regret her giving birth and I've been holding down a good job for the past 13 years, as most of my other siblings too.

[Lex]

Mate, my mother raised me despite being poor with 6 other siblings and yet I certainly don't regret her giving birth

I kinda do...

[Space_Monkey]

How do people feel about gay couples useing a surrogate mother?

[sausage]

I have no problem since anal birth is out of the question.

[aubergine]

I would want to be sure I was adopting a child into a safe environment that will nuture it despite the problems, not just adopt because its a milestone in the gay rights movement.

Your suggestion (?) here that gay couples would want to adopt just as... some kind of disingenuous achievement point or something is pretty offensive. They want kids because they want kids, not to prove something to you.

[Lex]

How do people feel about gay couples useing a surrogate mother?

I think anyone using surrogate mothers is creepy, personally. You can't concieve? too freakin bad.

[Ryan Hayward]

Your suggestion (?) here that gay couples would want to adopt just as... some kind of disingenuous achievement point or something is pretty offensive. They want kids because they want kids, not to prove something to you.

Hold on, isn't Beanchild gay himself?

[sausage]

If this is a gay thread then where are the lesbians?

http://criticalmas.com/inc/images/darth-choke.jpg

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

I'm a lesbian. I love the women.

[Araenel]

I mostly agree with Blue and Laz. While I want to see Gay Adoption legalised (and would like to adopt a kid someday) I also firmly believe the first concern in this issue is the welfare of any children. In a situation such as the one texta cited, the benefit to the child is obvious, but in a situation where a gay couple which to raise a child and adopt anonymously, it has to be taken into consideration whether they'd be good parents and whether their sexuality will adversely effect the child BEFORE you consider the "rights of gay people to parent."

This is a split issue for me because while I am for gay adoption, the way I see a lot of gay people carrying on about their right to adopt like children are a prize to be won turns me off a lot of their arguments. I know they're driven to the point sometimes because they want children, quite naturally, and it is all coming from a good place but that still bothers me.

I guess my answer is mostly: I do not know. I know I could provide a child with a huge amount of love and probably good parenting, but that isn't enough. I can't comprehensively answer whether I can provide the child with a healthy childhood and I'd want to know that before I ever adopted. And that is my thinking about myself, when I think I would be a good parent. There are gay people out there who would be TERRIBLE parents even without the added complications.

Just on this, haven't most major shifts in how society treats minorities occurred as a result of forced change? Slavery, segregation, even gays themselves had laws against them which were removed/overturned.

I don't think the best option is to necessarily "wait and hope" for everyone to become tolerant. I think a lot of anti-gay people are able to "put up" with gay people because they can be mostly out of sight, or you can forcefully ignore those two men walking on the street in front of you holding hands. Having gay couples with kids makes them confront the issue with their own kids at school, in parks and so on. Could be part of what makes the opposition so strong.

I think normalising the issue to children when they're young, through preschool/primary school teachers is the main way to counter any problems that have been pointed out in late primary school and high school. I also think you're overestimating people's willingness to tolerate and teach that tolerance to their kids if you think waiting for people to accept gays having children before legislating it is the best way to go.

[REQUIEM]

No dam way. If you wanna play for the other team you cannot have our perks. When a same sex couple can have sex UNAIDED and produce a child then yes but since they cant its a privilidge for normal couples, and before the haters start yes if you are gay then you arent normal.

While there are still NORMAL sets of loving parents that want to adopt and cant then no.

[borgster101]

What is "normal"?

[REQUIEM]

What is "normal"?

Men that have sex with woman.

Woman that have sex with men.

Simple really when you think about it.

[Ryan Hayward]

Can we keep him? :)

[REQUIEM]

Yet children are born into the lifestyles of junkie whores, pedophiles, women beaters and alcoholics. Seriously mate, I think your child could get over the gay issues as they arn't even one fifth as bad as what many other kids have to face up to each and every day.

What are you saying that GAY couples arent alcoholics, woman beaters, pedophiles or whores..... Where is your proof that there are NO gay offenders of these afflictions. Prouduce your facts or they are just your assumptions that show ignorance. Yes there are straight people that suffer from the above afflictions but just as in the gay community these are the MINORITY. Dont paint us with your JUSTIFICATION brush. I revert back to my original post.

[Ryan Hayward]

That was not what I was saying, bro. No doubt some homosexuals will not make good parents but neither do some straight couples who unfortunately have more rights than homosexuals.

[Afrogamer]

What are you saying that GAY couples arent alcoholics, woman beaters, pedophiles or whores..... Where is your proof that there are NO gay offenders of these afflictions. Prouduce your facts or they are just your assumptions that show ignorance. Yes there are straight people that suffer from the above afflictions but just as in the gay community these are the MINORITY. Dont paint us with your JUSTIFICATION brush. I revert back to my original post.

But just because their gay they cant adopt a child? If both TEAMS have these afflictions and on both only a small minority have these problems i dont see why not. If been gay aint normal then if the all mighty big man upstairs created thought and form then why would he give gay people these thoughts?

[REQUIEM]

But just because their gay they cant adopt a child? If both TEAMS have these afflictions and on both only a small minority have these problems i dont see why not. If been gay aint normal then if the all mighty big man upstairs created thought and form then why would he give gay people these thoughts?

1: There is no GOD

2: Read my post about being able to create a child

3: If you think gay is normal then you bud are confused about reality

4: Life is sustainable on EARTH by straight couples not gays.

I have nothing against gay people, I have a gay friend that I have socialised with for over a decade however when it comes to having a child its not right in my opinion. Read my original posts as Im not going over it again.

[Afrogamer]

3: If you think gay is normal then you bud are confused about reality


Im not confused im just a poor wittle boy...

[Blue]

1: There is no GOD

2: Read my post about being able to create a child

3: If you think gay is normal then you bud are confused about reality

4: Life is sustainable on EARTH by straight couples not gays.

I have nothing against gay people, I have a gay friend that I have socialised with for over a decade however when it comes to having a child its not right in my opinion. Read my original posts as Im not going over it again.Wow an atheist homophobe!?

[Araenel]

The best part about all this, is if Australia actually had the golden "democracy" that requiem longs for, then we would have had full same-sex marriages in our laws a while ago. The questions in polls usually includes "full legal recognition", I don't it's necessarily a huge leap to suggest that would involve adoption.

[AranchineD]

Blue you c*** you're flooding the Aran's mother jokes market, it's the only gimmick I have left on the forums that's still somewhat funny and I don't need you waltzing in and taking that away from me too!

[Stevorooni]

No dam way. If you wanna play for the other team you cannot have our perks. When a same sex couple can have sex UNAIDED and produce a child then yes but since they cant its a privilidge for normal couples, and before the haters start yes if you are gay then you arent normal.

While there are still NORMAL sets of loving parents that want to adopt and cant then no.

"They're not allowed to adopt children until they can pop them out themselves!"

Well I guess "normal" couples who cannot biologically have children due to sterility or something shouldn't be allowed to adopt either then. They just don't have the ovaries for it!

and psst... if gay couples were physically capable of having children then why would they want to adopt?

[igotnewsuper8systemWRONG!]

I think gay couples should be forced to adopt children

[AranchineD]

I think gay children should be forced to parent adoptees.

[Ryan Hayward]

I think gay couples should be forced to adopt children

Amen brother, plenty of orphans that need love. Shame that Elton John wasn't able to adopt. Can you imagine how well off that third world kid would have been compared to his/her present predicament? By the time Elton dies, the kid would have been an adult and a millionaire. The mind boogles.....

[REQUIEM]

Amen brother, plenty of orphans that need love. Shame that Elton John wasn't able to adopt. Can you imagine how well off that third world kid would have been compared to his/her present predicament? By the time Elton dies, the kid would have been an adult and a millionaire. The mind boogles.....

You see there is justice and besides is money EVERYTHING, thats a contradiction to the loving parent excuse. So you think on that basis that an unsuitable person can adopt because they have millions of dollars?

Hmm ok...

[Dunkurtin]

ROFL this guy is a total moron. Homosexuality isn't NORMAL but im not a homophobe, complete with the token 'i have a gay friend' comment. :rolleyes:

[FrozenSoul80]

Okay, I want no more of that previous bullshit. This thread is getting a one more chance, if you guys **** it up, the thread goes.

[Dunkurtin]

tyvm.

[Shorty]

Okay, I want no more of that previous bullshit. This thread is getting a one more chance, if you guys **** it up, the thread goes.

I give it half a day, at this rate. Probably less.

[Second]

Balls. Balls to you all.

[sausage]

I want second helpings of Second's balls. Secondly, lol at all the deleted posts.

[Almighty Beanchild]

Your suggestion (?) here that gay couples would want to adopt just as... some kind of disingenuous achievement point or something is pretty offensive. They want kids because they want kids, not to prove something to you.

That's not my suggestion though. The gay couples who go through the adoption process are more than likely not the ones who view adoption as a milestone in gay rights, but the ones who want to raise kids. But that wasn't really my point, my point is the gay people who talk about gay adoption only in terms of gay rights, without much thought for the children's side of things are not approaching the issue in the right frame-of-mind. These people do exist, I've met them and I find their arguments to be in incredibly bad faith.

Just on this, haven't most major shifts in how society treats minorities occurred as a result of forced change? Slavery, segregation, even gays themselves had laws against them which were removed/overturned.

I don't think the best option is to necessarily "wait and hope" for everyone to become tolerant. I think a lot of anti-gay people are able to "put up" with gay people because they can be mostly out of sight, or you can forcefully ignore those two men walking on the street in front of you holding hands. Having gay couples with kids makes them confront the issue with their own kids at school, in parks and so on. Could be part of what makes the opposition so strong.

I think normalising the issue to children when they're young, through preschool/primary school teachers is the main way to counter any problems that have been pointed out in late primary school and high school. I also think you're overestimating people's willingness to tolerate and teach that tolerance to their kids if you think waiting for people to accept gays having children before legislating it is the best way to go.

I agree with you! I'm not against gay adoption by any means, like I said in my original post, I want it legalised. I just don't find myself standing with most gay people on this issue becuase their attitude rubs me the wrong way. It's a delicate and difficult issue, I want legalisation and implementation of that legislation to be done at every step with the focus being on what is best for children in any potential adoption scenario, that's all. I'm not saying wait for universal tolerance before legislation, I am saying don't use the argument that it's homophobic/intolerant to deny gays the right to adopt. The argument SHOULD be "gay parents can provide a loving environment for children who are in need of adoption, look here is this proof." I believe that's a true argument, I just don't hear of/meet many gay activists who make it.

It's when it comes to my personal situation that I am more confused, as I was trying to explain to Ryan Hayward.

[Almighty Beanchild]

Why do I always kill threads? :(

[Araenel]

Because you're such a self-loathing homo~!!

[Almighty Beanchild]

Because you're such a self-loathing homo~!!

Reported.

[Araenel]

:coolface:

[Lex]

why does FS80 need to ruin threads? you should know by now that they usually work their way back to the topic eventually. stop being a shitmod. bring back kev.

[AranchineD]

Reported.

For being awesome.

[REQUIEM]

why does FS80 need to ruin threads? you should know by now that they usually work their way back to the topic eventually. stop being a shitmod. bring back kev.

Yeah Big Kev is by far the best mod....

[Tonez]

How old are you REQUIEM?

[aubergine]

I think gay couples should be forced to adopt children

This is awesome.

"Fine. Be gay. But do your bit."

[REQUIEM]

How old are you REQUIEM?

Old enough to own my house.

[Dunkurtin]

Kids think they own the house at 10...

[Xanafalgue]

Old enough to own my house.

Baby Boomer

[Ryan Hayward]

Me and Requiem live in a shared house for sexual offenders.

[REQUIEM]

Kids think they own the house at 10...

lol ... keep it on topic tin. Im an old nemesis on these forums bud and Im older than 10 not as old as 35

[REQUIEM]

Me and Requiem live in a shared house for sexual offenders.

I told you not to tape what we did, we would have gotten away with it otherwise.

[Xanafalgue]

Im an old nemesis on these forums bud and Im older than 10 not as old as 35

*Eastenders theme music*