Mullumbimby High School blame game

[Lazlow]

As you would have no doubt heard/read/seen, 15 year old Jai Morcom was killed after a scuffle over a table broke out during recess.

Today the student staged a mass walkout in protest, over their belief the school and its principal failed in its duty of care, and turned a blind eye to an apparent culture of violence and bullying that was allowed to manifest. The students, and apparently some parents, are calling for the princpal to be sacked.

Two prior instances I've also read about;

- a 2005 student documentary on the school has a maths teacher claiming their were certain students with definite violence tendencies

- youtube videos of students participating in gloved boxing matches on the field.



While I feel for the loss of a life over for a pathetic reason, I also feel for the school's administration beeing made the scapegoat. As the brother of a secondary teacher, I've heard some pretty shocking stories and how careful they must handle such situations. I've also heard out the naive outright denial from parents, who wouldn't believe their child is anything by a blue eyed angel.

Teachers
They indeed have a duty of care to ensure the safety of other peoples' children. But they also hafve a duty of care to themselves, and are granted leeway when it comes to handling violent situations. If they perceive no danger to themselves then they must intervene, but only with reasonable force. And this is where many teachers exercise caution, due to the litigious nature of society.

For example a teacher I know of was threatened with legal action by parents after he grabbed a child's arm to prevent him from throwing a rock at another student. Whilst a case that went nowhere for the parents, it places unecessary emotional stress on the teacher, and only damages their career.

Did the teachers fail in their duty of care at Mullumbimby High? Only if they knew of the constant scuffling over this particular table and failed to do anything about it.

The school's website lists a very comprehensive anti-bullying policy.

Parents
Here is where some of the questions should be squarely laid. These days bullying extends beyond the school ground, and beyond the jurisdiction of teachers and school staff. Parents need to shoulder a large portion of the responsibilty when it comes to stamping out bullying and violence. They are the ones raising these children.

Were they alerted to their child's disruptive and violent behaviour, and if so, did they do anything about it?

Students
If they are so genuinely outraged at the culture of violence and bullying that persists amongst their peers, then why not take a good hard introspective look at themselves, and do something about it. Don't sit idly by and cheer on a fight, then point the finger at someone else when someone is seriously hurt.

I really wish Triple J would stop giving a voice to the youth of Australia sometimes. It really doesn't help their cause when you hear emotionally driven, naive and short sighted sentiments, from someone who clearly hasn't had a looked what the teachers are legally obligated to do and not do in their duty of care.

[HiredMan]

Yeah I agree with most of what you've said and think that calls for the principals sacking are pretty stupid. I think all they can do in this situation is expel the students who were fighting and maybe organise some anti violence councelling.

[Tonez]

I saw some quote from a kid at the school earlier that was something along the lines of: If the school cared, they would've spent money on getting extra lunch tables rather then wasting their money on perimeter fencing.

You know, because perimter fencing is a waste of money.

I also love how it's the school's fault for not providing extra lunch tables but not the students' fault for fighting over what was a ****ING lunch table.

[HiredMan]

Gen Z eat dicks (or is it Gen Y?) :p Gen X ftw! :D

[Lazlow]

Gen Z, Gen Y's are cool as cucumbers :cool:

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

Yeah I agree with most of what you've said and think that calls for the principals sacking are pretty stupid. I think all they can do in this situation is expel the students who were fighting and maybe organise some anti violence councelling.

And even then, students are supposed to be in school until they are at least 15, which means they have to go somewhere. Some schools do end up as a dumping ground for troubled students, which to me seems like a stupid thing to do. "Let's put all the violent students in one school". Three guesses at how that plan ends up and the first two don't count.

It is sad that it has happened, but there is only so much that teachers can do. The students should take some responsiblility for themselves.

[Citizen Erased]

Man, I would hate to be the guy responsible for killing the kid right now.

[Lazlow]

Right now no one is being held responsible, it was a group brawl, and they are waiting on an autospy to find the cause of death.

He may have merely hit his head on something when he was knocked down.

[Saxby]

hAwxhLrGqzc

So what's different about this school?

... The sheila's lol!

4HgrjsGtkao

[texta]

Right now no one is being held responsible, it was a group brawl, and they are waiting on an autospy to find the cause of death.

He may have merely hit his head on something when he was knocked down.

Yeah pretty much.

I'm not really sure about the link to bullying either. Not to say that there might not be a bullying problem at this school, but people having a fight over a table and a kid getting accidentally knocked down and killed isn't necessarily connected.

[AranchineD]

Today the student staged a mass walkout in protest, over their belief the school and its principal failed in its duty of care, and turned a blind eye to an apparent culture of violence and bullying that was allowed to manifest. The students, and apparently some parents, are calling for the princpal to be sacked.

Hey guys, I totally have a mad idea so we don't have to go to school today!

I'll bet anything about 1% of the people in that protest actually have a shit about the kid dying.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

Yeah pretty much.

I'm not really sure about the link to bullying either. Not to say that there might not be a bullying problem at this school, but people having a fight over a table and a kid getting accidentally knocked down and killed isn't necessarily connected.

Doesn't mean it was either. In fact, I'd be suprised if it wasn't bullying, just as it's likely that the death wasn't intentional.

[sausage]

Hey guys, I totally have a mad idea so we don't have to go to school today!

I'll bet anything about 1% of the people in that protest actually have a shit about the kid dying.


THIS... a thousand times this.


This is a direct result of policies and procedures that are set up to fail because they are drafted by fuedal middle managers using language that only satisfies adminstrative buck-passing and leaves the public with no-one else left to blame than the poor schmucks at the end of the red tape; in this case, the school and its staff.

Listen to me; I know.

[Lex]

god I hate kids today, I mean, we were little ******s, but I don't remember staging a "walk-out".

[TAT]

I'm not saying that I could have predicted this exact incident, but I preempted the worsening attitude of teenagers 5 years ago when I decided to go into primary teaching instead of secondary. I hope that I can influence the children in a positive way, and it is encouraging to see so many primary schools with some sort of 'values education' these days - which, if you ask me, is necessay due to the growing number of slack and complacent parents. I think they are the group that need to be doing more to curb the unwanted teen behaviours; when I was at high school (circa 1996-2001) students dying for any reason other than terminal illness was absolutely unheard of, and it's terrible that child deaths (or anyone, for that matter) as a result of violence are looked at so nonchalantly.

[Second]

Some schools do end up as a dumping ground for troubled students, which to me seems like a stupid thing to do. "Let's put all the violent students in one school". Three guesses at how that plan ends up and the first two don't count.I was in one. Would not recommend for anyone. <_<

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200908/r426811_2036199.jpg

Has someone checked on dekar recently?

[Lazlow]

He's alive, gettin' high, and having sex with men.

[Araenel]

My mother worked at Clarkson high school for one term as a woodwork teacher here in WA. For those not in the state, Clarkson is possibly one of the worst high schools in the state, it's way up on the far northern fringes of the city and a total mess. No student actually wants to be there, violence is the norm and police a probably called at least once a week to stop borderline riots from happening, that is not an exaggeration.

If violence/bullying was supposedly endemic at this school like it is at Clarkson, then the only duty of care teachers would have would be to themselves.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

Link (http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/teachers-are-powerless-to-stop-schoolyard-violence/)

An interesting article written about some processes in place where students have an avenue to complain about teachers. It's interesting that the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty' doesn't apply anywhere but the courts.

[Serenity]

My mother worked at Clarkson high school for one term as a woodwork teacher here in WA. For those not in the state, Clarkson is possibly one of the worst high schools in the state, it's way up on the far northern fringes of the city and a total mess. No student actually wants to be there, violence is the norm and police a probably called at least once a week to stop borderline riots from happening, that is not an exaggeration.

If violence/bullying was supposedly endemic at this school like it is at Clarkson, then the only duty of care teachers would have would be to themselves.
Gnomey and I drove past it when I was in Perth. It's the only school I've seen with barbed wire fences.

So I used to go to one of the smaller schools in the state, we only had about 300 kids. The kids for the most part were fairly good up until my year got to Grade 12 (2007). Traditionally there's a little quadrangle designated for the seniors to sit (it's unofficial but it's a long standing tradition) and we were all excited because we could sit there now. About a week after, all the Grade 8s move in and they are rowdy as hell. They're always pushing each other, throwing shit at us and just generally pissing us off. We tried to tell them to move but they wouldn't budge. They are now in Grade 10 and my younger brother (Grade 12 this year) says their group and the younger grades are all just little pricks. Fights happen daily and there's nothing anyone can do to stop them. Every time there was a fight in my day, maybe once a month, the whole school would watch, they all went running over. Some would have recorded it with their phones. Now everyone records it. When they do that it just encourages them. It's a sad state of affairs.

[JC Henderson]

I'm not saying that I could have predicted this exact incident, but I preempted the worsening attitude of teenagers 5 years ago when I decided to go into primary teaching instead of secondary. I hope that I can influence the children in a positive way, and it is encouraging to see so many primary schools with some sort of 'values education' these days - which, if you ask me, is necessay due to the growing number of slack and complacent parents. I think they are the group that need to be doing more to curb the unwanted teen behaviours; when I was at high school (circa 1996-2001) students dying for any reason other than terminal illness was absolutely unheard of, and it's terrible that child deaths (or anyone, for that matter) as a result of violence are looked at so nonchalantly.

Good to see another primary chalky on the boards. I think the fact you get the entire day with the students as opposed to the high school setup makes a huge difference in the impact you have.

[Lazlow]

My Grade 7 teacher once threw a kid up against the black board >_>

On the other hand, when I was in Kununurra in grade 5 or 6, one of the teachers on playground duty got bottled by an aboriginal girl.

[Serenity]

My Grade 7 teacher once threw a kid up against the black board >_>

On the other hand, when I was in Kununurra in grade 5 or 6, one of the teachers on playground duty got bottled by an aboriginal girl.

All I can say is, bring back the cane. But of course we can't what with political correctness having gone too far. Those children got taught discipline, now the youth of today can do whatever they please and get away with it because the teachers can't do anything or they get a lawsuit.

[texta]

Doesn't mean it was either. In fact, I'd be suprised if it wasn't bullying, just as it's likely that the death wasn't intentional.The point is that we don't really know. So it's too early to be pointing the finger in any direction.

The most likely scenario is that he was either hit or pushed and sustained his injuries when he fell over (since this is how a lot of people who die in fights are actually hurt) or it could be that he had some kind of pre-existing issue that no one was medically aware of that was either the cause or a major contributing factor. The post-mortem is apparently happening today, so lets wait for that before getting on our high horses.

[Lazlow]

it could be that he had some kind of pre-existing issue that no one was medically aware of that was either the cause or a major contributing factor

I had read a report that mentioned he looked ill from the start of the day.

[sausage]

Obviously then the teachers are at fault for not recognising this.

For shame.

[Araenel]

I liked on that triple J report that when asked, kids who were supposedly his friends couldn't think of anything specific that he liked to do apart from "ride his bike everywhere". Nice friends.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

From what I heard on the news last night (I don't generally watch the nightly news, just listen to the small snippets on the radio and trawl the news websites when it's quiet at work), the fight was actually between two other students and he got involved somehow (I thought I heard that he was trying to break up the fight, but I'm not sure if that was right).

The truely sad part about it is how hard it's going to be to piece together what actually happened. From interviews with the police on the news last night, it seems that a lot of the kids that are claiming they witnessed the event are giving conflicting reports.

[sausage]

From personal experience I've found that once kids up to the age of 17 talk to cops ALL MANNER OF SHIT comes out because they are, quite simply, talking to cops.

Strange I know but it's similar when a news camera pops up in the company of kids; all hell breaks loose.

[Tonez]

from personal experience i've found that once kids up to the age of 17 talk to cops all manner of shit comes out because they are, quite simply, talking to cops.

Strange i know but it's similar when a news camera pops up in the company of kids; all hell breaks loose.

chk chk boom

[Slippery]

All I can say is, bring back the cane. But of course we can't what with political correctness having gone too far. Those children got taught discipline, now the youth of today can do whatever they please and get away with it because the teachers can't do anything or they get a lawsuit.

Please tell me you're joking.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

It got results. I guess you have to weigh up if you want teachers to be inflicting pain on students or students on teachers and other students. I'd be for it if they wanted to bring it back.

[Jickle]

But isn't that really just taking one problem and trying to replace it with another? The act of being physically beaten as a punishment could potentially be pretty traumatic. Shouldn't we be aiming for a happy medium? Teachers need more power than they're being given if this sort of thing is able to happen, but I think the cane was a bit much.

[AranchineD]

There's too many sexual deviants nowadays for the cane to be effective anyway.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

And having a student die as a result of lack of discipline isn't traumatic? Granted it's an extreme situation that happens very rarely in schools, but it does happen, and there's that school that had three or four kids commit suicide due to bullying. Yes it is severe (sp?), but it's a lot easier to back from from extreme disiplinary measures that it is to put them back on again. The cane has the ability to (relatively) quickly bring discipline back then we can phase out its used again with some stricter measures than what we have now.

The problem as I see it is that all the solutions to bullies and disciplinary problems involve taking the troublemakers out of class, which just makes them understand even less and puts them further behind the 8 ball, or suspending them from school, which they see as a good thing. I'm not even sure there's a solution to this problem when the only solutions being presented are based on exclusion.

[AranchineD]

I really wish they had the cane back when I was at school.

[Slippery]

The solution to highschool violence is not smacking 8 year olds on the knuckles with rulers. All that teaches is to meet problems (in this case poor behaviour) with violence and aggression.

[Fenrir]

I'm not really sure about the link to bullying either. Not to say that there might not be a bullying problem at this school, but people having a fight over a table and a kid getting accidentally knocked down and killed isn't necessarily connected.
I'd've thought it fair to assume that a culture of violence will involve a lot of bullying, too.

Parents
Here is where some of the questions should be squarely laid. These days bullying extends beyond the school ground, and beyond the jurisdiction of teachers and school staff. Parents need to shoulder a large portion of the responsibilty when it comes to stamping out bullying and violence. They are the ones raising these children.

Were they alerted to their child's disruptive and violent behaviour, and if so, did they do anything about it?
I'm not really happy with how I'm covering this topic here, but I'll just post whatever crap I've written.

This'll probably be the root of many of society's ills until governments decide to more invasively intervene. Parenting is one of the only occupations largely uninfluenced by prerequisite qualifications and accountability - if you're capable of reproduction and have a willing sex partner, and don't grossly abuse or neglect your offspring, you can pretty much pump out as many as you want.

Unfortunately, I don't know what sort of solution to opt for if you don't want a mass-orphanage system, or stolen-generation situation arising. Unqualified and unaccountable parents is a problem, but ****ing with the traditional family unit is absolutely precarious. I'm really drawing a mental blank on this one.

Students
If they are so genuinely outraged at the culture of violence and bullying that persists amongst their peers, then why not take a good hard introspective look at themselves, and do something about it. Don't sit idly by and cheer on a fight, then point the finger at someone else when someone is seriously hurt.
This one is interesting - I recall footage from one of the American high-school murder-suicide shootings (Columbine, maybe?) of crying survivors saying that they wish the offender had said something instead of resorting to violence, etc, which is sort-of similar.
It's entirely bullshit. Tell your classmates you've been thinking about bringing your dad's rifles to school and riddling them with bullets, and the last thing you'll get is empathy or support - chances are most will laugh and mock, some will take offence, and you'll probably end up in counselling. Most teenagers are so shallowly dedicated to the schoolyard caste system that they won't become considerate until a classmate dies in a dispute over a table, so I'm at best cautious about taking this bout of student activism seriously.

I'm really not sure what can be done about this, but essentially what I'm getting at, is that the core of the problem is with the students. Parents don't exactly raise their kids to be this way - this is just the standard schoolyard culture (well, an extreme variant of it in this case), passed down from each generation of students to the next.

[sausage]

But isn't that really just taking one problem and trying to replace it with another? The act of being physically beaten as a punishment could potentially be pretty traumatic.


Only to those stupid/ignorant enough to behave like dickheads. Therefore this "trauma" may be beneficial.

Put it this way, is what we are doing now working? Maybe six of the best is just what Bully McBully needs.

The outlawing of corporal punishment and the banning of bullrush at schools was the start of this whole sorry mess. I know; I lived through it.

[Second]

All I can say is, bring back the cane. But of course we can't what with political correctness having gone too far. Those children got taught discipline, now the youth of today can do whatever they please and get away with it because the teachers can't do anything or they get a lawsuit.

So, the only thing that different between the old days and today was the cane, AMIRITE?

[Araenel]

I wish Jim would stop leaking stupid.

[sausage]

So, the only thing that different between the old days and today was the cane, AMIRITE?


Yup, and every indirect threat that comes with it.

[Serenity]

So, the only thing that different between the old days and today was the cane, AMIRITE?

The only major difference anyway.

[Fenrir]

The outlawing of corporal punishment and the banning of bullrush at schools was the start of this whole sorry mess. I know; I lived through it.
THEY BANNED BULLRUSH!?! Oh ffs

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

This one is interesting - I recall footage from one of the American high-school murder-suicide shootings (Columbine, maybe?) of crying survivors saying that they wish the offender had said something instead of resorting to violence, etc, which is sort-of similar.
It's entirely bullshit. Tell your classmates you've been thinking about bringing your dad's rifles to school and riddling them with bullets, and the last thing you'll get is empathy or support - chances are most will laugh and mock, some will take offence, and you'll probably end up in counselling. Most teenagers are so shallowly dedicated to the schoolyard caste system that they won't become considerate until a classmate dies in a dispute over a table, so I'm at best cautious about taking this bout of student activism seriously.

While I agree with what you're saying about that particular event, this is a little bit different. It seems that it was an accident where two students were fighing, someone got caught in the middle of it and died. This is a perfect opportunity for those kids to do some soul-searching and discover if that's the way they want to be.

[Fenrir]

So, the solution is then to have one fatal incident occur in the playground among every year of students at each school?

[Silverwolf]

Yup, and every indirect threat that comes with it.

This is the thing, it was all about fear. Which is what Serenity was implying (I think). The cane was the embodiment of what schoolkids feared.

There is no fear anymore, because there is no threat of retribution.

[Araenel]

It's interesting the number of people advocating the use of corporal punishment who never actually lived through it themselves.

[sausage]

I was there, I got the cane and it worked.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

So, the solution is then to have one fatal incident occur in the playground among every year of students at each school?

As much as I'd like to kill off one stupid teenager in each school every year, I somehow don't think everybody else would go for it.

As I said before, I don't know where the so-called 'happy medium' is, but Silverwolf is right that students need to have some fear of the consequences of their actions. Suspension and expulsion only compound the issue. I know people are looking at alternative forms of delivery (like getting students into TAFE or apprenticeships after year 10), but that still doesn't help those in year 10 and below. The cane puts the fear of god back in children where parents are either not willing or unable to do so.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

It's interesting the number of people advocating the use of corporal punishment who never actually lived through it themselves.

No, but I lived through my parents smacking me for doing something wrong. By that argument we could say that, by you not living through it, you don't know that it doesn't at least reduce the problems we're having now. It seems to me that we've swapped one evil for another and, to be honest, I'd rather have copped a few of the best in school than have the youth issues we have now.

[Stevorooni]

I was a good boy so I wouldn't have gotten the cane anyway. :o

Although I did get belted on a rare occasion at home.

[jawsy]

If you think the cane would stop bullying (or, equally as preposterously, that it did) you are a dingleberry.

[Silverwolf]

If you think the cane would stop bullying (or, equally as preposterously, that it did) you are a dingleberry.

This isn't about bullying.

[jawsy]

If you think the cane is the cure for concerns about discipline (or, equally as preposterously, that is was) you are a dingleberry.

[Jickle]

Maybe Battle Royale should start being taught as a film text in schools. Tell kids "if you don't behave we're shipping you off to a remote island and forcing you to fight to the death". That'll sort them out!

[Silverwolf]

If you think the cane is the cure for concerns about discipline (or, equally as preposterously, that is was) you are a dingleberry.

If you read my post you'd see that that isnt what people think.

[Araenel]

Oh great now personal stories are being used to justify actions across a whole population.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

Oh great now personal stories are being used to justify actions across a whole population.

So what solution do you offer from your ivory tower, good sir? Or do you just sit there and throw stones like all the other so-called intellectual bullies in the form of barbed words? You know, people like you shit me to tears. You're quite happy to poke holes in other people's ideas but put nothing forward of your own.

I know in the long run that fear and pain are not ways to improve the situation, but it does get it to a malleable situation where you can relax things to a point where you can get rid of the fear and the pain, but don't you dare stand there and tell me that people dying and killing themselves are better than corporal punishment without offering me a different solution.

[AranchineD]

Look, I'll put it bluntly: don't need fear if you have respect.

I don't think anyone in my year 12 group actually acted up because we all respected our year co-ordinator that much we didn't want to let the dude down.




...although we did respect him because he was an awesome troll to the rest of the school and they were afraid of him

[Araenel]

So what solution do you offer from your ivory tower, good sir? Or do you just sit there and throw stones like all the other so-called intellectual bullies in the form of barbed words? You know, people like you shit me to tears. You're quite happy to poke holes in other people's ideas but put nothing forward of your own.

I know in the long run that fear and pain are not ways to improve the situation, but it does get it to a malleable situation where you can relax things to a point where you can get rid of the fear and the pain, but don't you dare stand there and tell me that people dying and killing themselves are better than corporal punishment without offering me a different solution.

Tell you what, I'll propose a decent solution after you give one first.

[Lazlow]

Schools shouldn't have to bear the burden of disciplining troublesome children. Caning is no solution, and there's a very good reason why it was removed from schools. Its an easily abused device by overzealous teachers, and teachers should not be physically disciplining other people's children.

If parents won't listen to school staff when they are advised their child is acting up, and the child continues to act up, then the school shouldn't have to tolerate it and the attentive students shouldn't have to suffer. Simply kick them out, and place them back in the care of the parents who are supposed to be rearing these children.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

Schools shouldn't have to bear the burden of disciplining troublesome children. Caning is no solution, and there's a very good reason why it was removed from schools. Its an easily abused device by overzealous teachers, and teachers should not be physically disciplining other people's children.

If parents won't listen to school staff when they are advised their child is acting up, and the child continues to act up, then the school shouldn't have to tolerate it and the attentive students shouldn't have to suffer. Simply kick them out, and place them back in the care of the parents who are supposed to be rearing these children.

I agree, schools shouldn't have to raise troublesome children for parents, but somedody has to. You then get the problem of children and teenagers having to be in some form of training until 17 (I'm pretty sure that's what it is in WA, not sure about the rest of Australia), which means they just become some other school's problem until the child just stops going to school altogether, and it's doubtful that parents that have let it go this far will take time out of their lives to home school them. We could do some mass-ophanages, but that doesn't really help with resurrecting the already faultering family unit. And kicking them out of school, while getting rid of the problem at that school, doesn't solve it completely.

Any system has the potential to be abused, but there are ways you can limit how that abuse can happen. You can start by setting clear guidelines as to what sort of punishment warrants corporal punishment. Violence against people is one (actual violence not threat of violence) and racial abuse are two that can be included. You can also give the power to only one or two individuals (Principal or Deputies for instance) and have it so that requests to enforce corporal punishment have to be formally written up and approved. I'm not talking about corporal punishment being used for everything, just severe circumstances.

[phatdex]

It's simple: Threat of physical pain = the smart ones behave and avoid the pain, or the dumb ones do something wrong and then never again. Easy. I do think something like this did make the kids behave more than they do now. All the kids I see nowadays think they are little bogan gangsters talking about people they have bashed, how they're gonna "shank" me etc etc.
Its true, I had a fifteen year old kid tell me he was gonna shank me because I told him off over graffiti and he threw a few punches at me too.
Now I am 195cm tall and ~110kgs and this little runt was throwing punches at me. Sometimes these kids need a lesson in pain. :p

[AranchineD]

I agree, schools shouldn't have to raise troublesome children for parents, but somedody has to. You then get the problem of children and teenagers having to be in some form of training until 17 (I'm pretty sure that's what it is in WA, not sure about the rest of Australia), which means they just become some other school's problem until the child just stops going to school altogether, and it's doubtful that parents that have let it go this far will take time out of their lives to home school them. We could do some mass-ophanages, but that doesn't really help with resurrecting the already faultering family unit. And kicking them out of school, while getting rid of the problem at that school, doesn't solve it completely.

Any system has the potential to be abused, but there are ways you can limit how that abuse can happen. You can start by setting clear guidelines as to what sort of punishment warrants corporal punishment. Violence against people is one (actual violence not threat of violence) and racial abuse are two that can be included. You can also give the power to only one or two individuals (Principal or Deputies for instance) and have it so that requests to enforce corporal punishment have to be formally written up and approved. I'm not talking about corporal punishment being used for everything, just severe circumstances.

So kids end up feeling like they're better and stronger then people in actual society who get convicted for these sorts of things and don't receive any form of corporal punishment?

[Stevorooni]

See I'm in favour of booting the real troublesome kids out of school, they want to **** around then they lose the right to an education.

But then we end up with them on the streets and we get a generation of people with no skills going nowhere in life. So what do we do with those people? Force them to take up some other form of study or an apprenticeship? Send them to Iraq where they can fight all they want? Make them do all the crappy jobs that no one else wants to do?

[Araenel]

There is considerable evidence that corporal punishment is associated with the subsequent aggression of children, and there is recent evidence that later in life this aggression includes physical assaults on spouses. (Straus & Yodanis, 1996)

Controlling for sociodemographic factors and physical abuse, our findings indicate a positive association between the frequency of corporal punishment and both psychological distress and depression. Although distress is greatest at higher frequencies of punishment, the association is also present at low and moderate levels of corporal punishment. (Turner & Finkelhor, 1996)

Social scientists have long argued that children exposed to harsh corporal punishment are apt to manifest a variety of emotional and behavioural problems. (Simon, Johnson & Conger, 1994)

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

So kids end up feeling like they're better and stronger then people in actual society who get convicted for these sorts of things and don't receive any form of corporal punishment?

That's another issue altogether, but I'd be quite happy to see harsher penalties for them too.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

There is considerable evidence that corporal punishment is associated with the subsequent aggression of children, and there is recent evidence that later in life this aggression includes physical assaults on spouses. (Straus & Yodanis, 1996)

Controlling for sociodemographic factors and physical abuse, our findings indicate a positive association between the frequency of corporal punishment and both psychological distress and depression. Although distress is greatest at higher frequencies of punishment, the association is also present at low and moderate levels of corporal punishment. (Turner & Finkelhor, 1996)

Social scientists have long argued that children exposed to harsh corporal punishment are apt to manifest a variety of emotional and behavioural problems. (Simon, Johnson & Conger, 1994)

So do you have an alternative yet or are you still throwing stones?

[Araenel]

I don't know why I need to offer one when you keep pressing an incredibly ridiculous and ineffective method.

[Lazlow]

Plus I just outlined an alternative. Araenel just saved me a post, because I was basically going to point out the same information.

[Slippery]

So do you have an alternative yet or are you still throwing stones?

What we have now is, in my mind, an incredibly superior alternative to what you're suggesting.

[Vindik8or]

Reading through this thread I was preparing to go into a big quote fest, but I thought better of it, just a couple of points.

TAT predicting the decline of teenage attitudes. Just lol. They have always been shits, and over the years, I'd have to say the demeanour has generally been getting better. Bullying is actually a recognised and targetted problem, as opposed to 20, 30, 50 years ago - gingers can now walk freely amongst the various levels of the playground caste system. The fact that their haven't been more deaths is more by good luck than good management, many situations have probably gone unreported that should have resulted in someone killed, and this one is probably a case of something not likely to kill a person taking a tragic accidental turn. That said, hitting someone always has a chance of killing them, people should realise that.

Corporal punishment, again, just lol. It's hilarious that you can actually think it's a good idea. I'll bring my own little anecdote, since that shit is so loved by the lowbrows here, in an effort to find a last clear space of wood to nail the shit outta that particular coffin.

The cane was stopped at my school when I was in grade 3, I think. I'd never gotten it, and I'd only ever heard of one kid copping the cuts. That said, I had one better - my dad's belt. That shit stung like nothing else and lasted for some time. Here's the thing though, it taught me quite a bit: how to lie really well, how to cover my tracks, how to talk down what I'd done and pass the blame. It never taught me better behaviour, and eventually I didn't care anymore if I got the belt (about age 12).

One spectacular day sometime after my parents had realised that stuff no longer had any effect on me, I got in a rage over something and punched a hole in my bedroom wall. I was banned from the computer for one month, during the Christmas holidays. That shit hurt. I learnt like nothing else before the big lesson and pretty much figured out better ways to control my angry pants.

[sausage]

Oh jesus there's a lot of naive ideology in the anti-corporal punishment cult. All I've seen from your side is "omg I can't believe..." and "anecdotes are for lowbrows" and "you are a dingleberry".

This is NOT the way to discuss your opinions if you want to be taken seriously. As it is; you are just laughing stocks throwing out childish abuse to anyone who disagrees with you while championing a failed social experiment.




So after spending millions of dollars on housing and teaching the worst arsehole kids in the North Island of NZ what do they do?..... arrest the teachers. See what I mean by setting shit up to fail? (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10594639&pnum=0)

[texta]

I'd've thought it fair to assume that a culture of violence will involve a lot of bullying, too.I don't think it's fair to assume that there is a culture of violence in the first place. One incident a few upset kids is probably not the standard of proof that I'd be looking for.

Oh jesus there's a lot of naive ideology in the anti-corporal punishment cult. All I've seen from your side is "omg I can't believe..." and "anecdotes are for lowbrows" and "you are a dingleberry".

This is NOT the way to discuss your opinions if you want to be taken seriously. As it is; you are just laughing stocks throwing out childish abuse to anyone who disagrees with you while championing a failed social experiment.




So after spending millions of dollars on housing and teaching the worst arsehole kids in the North Island of NZ what do they do?..... arrest the teachers. See what I mean by setting shit up to fail?
No one really cares about New Zealand mate.

There are a wealth of studies that show that corporal punishment is either ineffective or counter productive in combating discipline issues in children. You can google them at your leisure.

[Lazlow]

Oh jesus there's a lot of naive ideology in the anti-corporal punishment cult. All I've seen from your side is "omg I can't believe..." and "anecdotes are for lowbrows" and "you are a dingleberry".

Must have missed this post, dingleberry;

There is considerable evidence that corporal punishment is associated with the subsequent aggression of children, and there is recent evidence that later in life this aggression includes physical assaults on spouses. (Straus & Yodanis, 1996)

Controlling for sociodemographic factors and physical abuse, our findings indicate a positive association between the frequency of corporal punishment and both psychological distress and depression. Although distress is greatest at higher frequencies of punishment, the association is also present at low and moderate levels of corporal punishment. (Turner & Finkelhor, 1996)

Social scientists have long argued that children exposed to harsh corporal punishment are apt to manifest a variety of emotional and behavioural problems. (Simon, Johnson & Conger, 1994)

This is NOT the way to discuss your opinions if you want to be taken seriously

Bit rich coming from someone who makes baseless statements and expects us to just take his word for it;

This is a direct result of policies and procedures that are set up to fail because they are drafted by fuedal middle managers using language that only satisfies adminstrative buck-passing and leaves the public with no-one else left to blame than the poor schmucks at the end of the red tape; in this case, the school and its staff.

Listen to me; I know.

:rolleyes:

[Slippery]

Oh jesus there's a lot of naive ideology in the anti-corporal punishment cult. All I've seen from your side is "omg I can't believe..." and "anecdotes are for lowbrows" and "you are a dingleberry".

This is NOT the way to discuss your opinions if you want to be taken seriously. As it is; you are just laughing stocks throwing out childish abuse to anyone who disagrees with you while championing a failed social experiment.


That's certainly a fair description of my contribution to the thread, but Lazlow has hit the nail on the head in terms of your selective retention.

[sausage]

Forget it guys; you're all white noise to me.

[Araenel]

Oh jesus there's a lot of naive ideology in the anti-corporal punishment cult. All I've seen from your side is "omg I can't believe..." and "anecdotes are for lowbrows" and "you are a dingleberry".

This is NOT the way to discuss your opinions if you want to be taken seriously. As it is; you are just laughing stocks throwing out childish abuse to anyone who disagrees with you while championing a failed social experiment.




So after spending millions of dollars on housing and teaching the worst arsehole kids in the North Island of NZ what do they do?..... arrest the teachers. See what I mean by setting shit up to fail? (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10594639&pnum=0)

So you just ignored the 3 studies I quoted from? There's tons more where that came from.

Corporal punishment is not an effective discipline tool.

[sausage]

And what now is REALLY working.


Or else we wouldn't be having this debate.

[Araenel]

Like I said before, why should I bother when the only alternative you're proposing is physical abuse? People have been suggesting alternatives anyway, you've just been ignoring them.

[sausage]

You presume to think I ignored them?


You are a arrogant fool.

[Araenel]

All I've seen from your side is "omg I can't believe..." and "anecdotes are for lowbrows" and "you are a dingleberry".

Hm???

[sausage]

So, the only thing that different between the old days and today was the cane, AMIRITE?

Yup, and every indirect threat that comes with it.

Like I said before, why should I bother when the only alternative you're proposing is physical abuse?



Hmm back.

[Araenel]

Well, I guess that makes it measured and balanced then!

[AranchineD]

*sigh*

Threaten kids with violence but without actually having any intention to hurt them will just result in the kids testing the boundaries as soon as they can, and once they realise they won't actually be hit things will have just been made worse.

[Cicada]

Corporal punishment is an outdated an ineffective idea imo, but the idea of putting more fear of punishment into students is spot on. The fact is, at most schools I know of, punishments such as detention, expulsion, banning from extra curricular activities etc.. are handed out willy-nilly by teachers for disrupting class, wagging and other misdemeanours, but when it comes to physical violence, the punishment to frequency ratio drops right off. Things like being punched in the face in class or shoved down stairs in full view of teachers rarely elicited much of a response, frequently because they felt there wasn't much they could achieve. Full scale fights got a bit more attention, but there would almost always be repeat incidents. Not to sound like a filthy sport hating intellectual snob here, but at my school, every single fight I can think of involved a footy player, and when it came to punishment, they always seemed to conveniently allow these kids to still play for the school, which often made them think that they could get away with whatever they wanted. One time, after a kid ended up in hospital vomiting and with nausea and the like as the result of a incredibly one sided fight, we were taken year by year and given a lecture. During this lecture, one idiot footyhead pipes up "Yeah, but what are we meant to do if someone's being smart and you can't bash em?" Bear in mind that this guy was in Year 12.

The political correctness and bureaucracy that surrounds these things is probably partly to blame, leading to wallbanging policies such as equal punishment for all parties, with no regard given who instigated the fight or the question of self defence. The whole issue needs to be tackled head on and recognised as an ingrained culture rather than the "isolated incidents" that it is frequently represented as.


tl;dr - Don't cane kids, just punish them uniformly and start hammering home an aversion to violence from early on. It also couldn't hurt to let parents know that they've actually raised a violent little shit.

[texta]

And what now is REALLY working.


Or else we wouldn't be having this debate.To be honest I don't think you can argue that our system isn't working. We've had one very tragic event, but we don't really know how or why it happened.

[sausage]

To be honest I don't think you can argue that our system isn't working. We've had one very tragic event, but we don't really know how or why it happened.


I'm guessing that since you are a stats man (no offence btw) you are referring to empirical crime studies and numerous social science reports.

I get that. I agree that what you base your argument on is sound, statistical information. However, and from personal experience in accumulating youth crime statistics in my former life, these are only half the picture.

The other, more intangible but still powerful, factor here is public perception. Politicians live and die by this but it goes further than that; much further. As anecdotal evidence in this thread will attest.

Unfortunately, 'perception' doesn't figure in crime stats or is deemed suitable information for intellectual discourse. Pity, they (and you) are missing out on probably 60-70% of what's really going on.

For the majority of the "man on the street" the perception is the system isn't working.

[Araenel]

Maybe that's because research is less inclined to consider what people "think" happens and more what actually happens.

[Lazlow]

Adults lamenting about kids today (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1347&dat=19720107&id=IoITAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZPoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7181,1631486) is a well worn cliche.

Maybe this book will help shed some light on the subject (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=3aVSIBHm2s8C&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=kids+really+worse+today&source=bl&ots=9Q5exDdeXe&sig=dXev3jyIwheRGWg5XxE_NnN4N-w&hl=en&ei=zdadSuDbHIGqswPt2aUk&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=kids%20really%20worse%20today&f=false)

[sausage]

Maybe that's because research is less inclined to consider what people "think" happens and more what actually happens.

My god man what's the matter with you. I just finished explaining that 60-70% of what actually happens isn't in the stats but is fueled by perception.

[Araenel]

Now I'm not even sure you know what statistics are.

[Lazlow]

Doesn't matter 60-70% of all statistics are all made up on the spot ;)

[sausage]

They are a useful tool but don't tell the full story. As long as you start to understand that life doesn't revolve around questionnaires and flawed statistic generation then all the better.

Crime stats are a joke full stop. Police commanders order troops to skew results by setting targets that create false crime trends.

Wanna create fear of burglary? Easy, order the troops to target burglary for a week and watch the stats soar.

Frightened by the rising tide of domestic violence? In NZ our domestic figures shot through the roof simply by the Police Minister ordering this edict: "Every domestic callout MUST be reported in writing".

Also, crime stats do not take into account the victims level of injuries, the crimes that were not reported and the general human-ness of every individual case.

This is where your statistics fail.

[texta]

I'm guessing that since you are a stats man (no offence btw) you are referring to empirical crime studies and numerous social science reports.

I get that. I agree that what you base your argument on is sound, statistical information. However, and from personal experience in accumulating youth crime statistics in my former life, these are only half the picture.

The other, more intangible but still powerful, factor here is public perception. Politicians live and die by this but it goes further than that; much further. As anecdotal evidence in this thread will attest.

Unfortunately, 'perception' doesn't figure in crime stats or is deemed suitable information for intellectual discourse. Pity, they (and you) are missing out on probably 60-70% of what's really going on.

For the majority of the "man on the street" the perception is the system isn't working.

Perception is an interesting beast and I think it's definitely important to try to get an accurate picture of what the public perception on fundamental issues like these ones are. However, I'm confident that the best method for doing this is with a random selection of people representative of the wider community rather than by forming assumptions on the basis of the opinions of the people you associate with.

Your suggestion that "perception doesn't figure in crime stats" is definitely wrong. Perception is very important in understanding and combating crime and studies on public attitudes to crime are fundamental to criminology.

I think you make the mistake that a lot of people do of examining your own little world and then extrapolating that out to assume that the rest of society is the same. This could not be further from the truth.


And as far as your comment about politicians go, I'm not sure that's accurate either. I'm lucky enough to be working for a politician and I recently discovered that while he was in opposition he ran a number of very significant court cases that protected the rights of asylum seekers from the then Liberal Government's draconian legislation. They were pro bono actions that he didn't publicise or tell anyone about, but they made a massive massive difference to the rights of asylum seekers.

The fact is that people get into politics for all kinds of reasons, but at least on my side of politics pure populism is very rarely one of them.


They are a useful tool but don't tell the full story. As long as you start to understand that life doesn't revolve around questionnaires and flawed statistic generation then all the better.

Crime stats are a joke full stop. Police commanders order troops to skew results by setting targets that create false crime trends.

Wanna create fear of burglary? Easy, order the troops to target burglary for a week and watch the stats soar.

Frightened by the rising tide of domestic violence? In NZ our domestic figures shot through the roof simply by the Police Minister ordering this edict: "Every domestic callout MUST be reported in writing".

Also, crime stats do not take into account the victims level of injuries, the crimes that were not reported and the general human-ness of every individual case.

This is where your statistics fail.Not really. A lot of study goes into why stats are what they are and I can say with 100% certainty that criminologists are well aware that changes in statistics aren't necessarily caused by a change in frequency of the actual crime.

Domestic violence is a great example where reports of domestic violence have dramatically increased over time indicating an increased desire to report it thanks to successful government campaigns to change societal attitudes to domestic violence rather than an increase in actual domestic violence.

[sausage]

Perception is an interesting beast and I think it's definitely important to try to get an accurate picture of what the public perception on fundamental issues like these ones are. However, I'm confident that the best method for doing this is with a random selection of people representative of the wider community rather than by forming assumptions on the basis of the opinions of the people you associate with.

I think you make the mistake that a lot of people do of examining your own little world and then extrapolating that out to assume that the rest of society is the same. This could not be further from the truth.


Agreed, and I hope you guys don't lump me in with the 'people I associate with' camp. I was a cop in NZ for nine years. Three years as a street cop in South Auckland and six years in community/youth aid (under 17s) law enforcement. After I finished in the police I spent three years getting my Bachelor of Arts in communication and journalism with a smattering of modern art and philosophy thrown in. I've worked at a major NZ City Council for 18 months and found out first hand how ineffectual the government can be in designing and implementing (mainly implementing) their own flawed policy. My favourite art movement is Futurism.



Your suggestion that "perception doesn't figure in crime stats" is definitely wrong. Perception is very important in understanding and combating crime and studies on public attitudes to crime are fundamental to criminology.

But how can they gauge perception if they don't know the level of it. Is it just a mandatory +/- universal figure they tack on ala political polls?



Not really. A lot of study goes into why stats are what they are and I can say with 100% certainty that criminologists are well aware that changes in statistics aren't necessarily caused by a change in frequency of the actual crime.

But doesn't that just reinforce my point that a) they need to work on the perception of said statistics and not run blatant anti-domestic violence/drink driving advertisements to whip up public discord?... and b) it still hasn't addressed the likes of 'unreported' crime and it's possible effect on stats/public perception?

[Fenrir]

I don't think it's fair to assume that there is a culture of violence in the first place. One incident a few upset kids is probably not the standard of proof that I'd be looking for.
Geez, I don't know whether to go for pop-debate or academic rigour with you guys anymore. This is exactly why I didn't bother responding to your last post in the smoking thread, too.

[Lex]

a shame you can't really do either...

[Fenrir]

Adults lamenting about kids today (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1347&dat=19720107&id=IoITAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZPoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7181,1631486) is a well worn cliche.

Maybe this book will help shed some light on the subject (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=3aVSIBHm2s8C&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=kids+really+worse+today&source=bl&ots=9Q5exDdeXe&sig=dXev3jyIwheRGWg5XxE_NnN4N-w&hl=en&ei=zdadSuDbHIGqswPt2aUk&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=kids%20really%20worse%20today&f=false)
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=3aVSIBHm2s8C&pg=PA80&dq=%22Because+both+are+often+hidden+from+outsiders ,+it+is+impossible+to+quantify+how+much+bullying+o r+hazing+actually+occurs%22#v=onepage&q=%22Because%20both%20are%20often%20hidden%20from% 20outsiders%2C%20it%20is%20impossible%20to%20quant ify%20how%20much%20bullying%20or%20hazing%20actual ly%20occurs%22&f=false

>_>

a shame you can't really do either...
Do you have anything other than plays on my persecution complex to back that up with?

[texta]

But how can they gauge perception if they don't know the level of it. Is it just a mandatory +/- universal figure they tack on ala political polls?

But doesn't that just reinforce my point that a) they need to work on the perception of said statistics and not run blatant anti-domestic violence/drink driving advertisements to whip up public discord?... and b) it still hasn't addressed the likes of 'unreported' crime and it's possible effect on stats/public perception?Criminologists bring in a very wide range of sources in assessing crime rates.

For some crimes such as property crimes the comparison between the reported instances of the crime and unreported (to police) results through random surveys etc is very similar so the assumption is that the level of reporting is very high (to give a more specific example: nearly everyone who has their car stolen reports it to police).

Other crimes have a much different variance between the reported level of crime and what people will admit to with anonymity. For example rape. But by comparing the rates of different crimes with survey results and other methods it's possible to get a reasonable picture of what the real frequency of the crime is like.

And then there are "crimes" like drink spiking where there is a large variance but a lot of different factors that do make it hard (eg people get their drink spiked but never realise or people drink too much and think their drink is spiked when it wasn't). (Drink spiking; at least in Tasmania isn't necessarily a crime).

As far as perception goes there has to be a balance between the general public opinion and the opinion of victims. I'd argue that the policy should be to encourage victims of crime to come forward as a priority over anything else which does mean running those ads.

And if public perception doesn't match reality then I think there is a duty to inform people what the true state of affairs is. I'd hate to live in a world of mob rule where politicians jumped on every little populist Today Tonight uproar irrespective of the reality of the situation.

Geez, I don't know whether to go for pop-debate or academic rigour with you guys anymore. This is exactly why I didn't bother responding to your last post in the smoking thread, too.I don't understand what your point is.

[Lazlow]

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...urs%22&f=false

>_>

Stating the obvious really.

[Fenrir]

I don't understand what your point is.
Bleh, just a passing comment.

Stating the obvious really.
It also seemed to be the thrust of sillysausage's argument. I'm not really following it, though.

[Ad-Rock]

I'm pretty sure we all know who is really to blame here:

RELIGION!

[texta]

That's a surprise.

Media 'sensationalised' schoolyard death

By News Online's Sophia Gardner and staff


Slideshow: Photo 1 of 3

Jai Morcom, 15, died in a Gold Coast hospital on Saturday after being found unconscious in the schoolyard last Friday morning.

The media reported there was going to be a mass walk-out on Monday, calling for the school's principal to resign.

But the planned protest turned into a peace march, with the principal walking with Jai's father and hundreds of students to the town's heritage park to commemorate the teenager's life.

Jai's father, Steve Drummond, told the hundreds of pupils and parents who gathered in the park that it was an appropriate display of love and respect.

Out the front of the school, some students aired concerns about what they say is a culture of bullying and violence and called for the principal to resign.

But school captain Vanessa Hill denies such a culture exists at Mullumbimby High and says the media featured people who were not representative of the school community.

"Students that have been expelled and others who don't even attend our school have been featured in numerous news articles spreading a biased and unfair view of the environment and culture of our school," she said.

She said the media showed footage of what they thought was a fight between two students captured on a mobile phone, but in fact was a supervised boxing lesson.

"They used this footage to support their lies about our school. The media was intrusive and they treated the students with little respect, lingering outside our school, some even venturing into the school grounds," she said.

Ms Hill says the school was turned into a media circus after the incident.

"Returning to school on Monday morning was so surreal. Students were confronted by multiple news networks and were constantly filmed as they embraced each other in loss of Jai," she said.

"The majority of MHS [Mullumbimby High School] students are peaceful beings and I don't believe that they are looking for someone to blame.

"They are more concerned for Jai's family and friends and are devastated by the destruction caused by unethical, biased media coverage."

Ms Hill says violence is sporadic at the school and fights are rare.

"This horrible occasion was the first fight in a very long time," she said.

A member of the school's P and C Association, Anne Bowden, believes the principal is doing a good job and the school has the support of the entire community.

"I had five children go through it and the level of commitment from the staff here gives me complete trust in the work they do," she said.

Counsellors are at the school offering support to students and staff, and Ms Hill says people are coping as best they can in the aftermath of Jai's death.

Family, friends, teachers, students and members of the community have laid flowers, burned candles and left offerings and messages at a shrine in memory of the teenager.

School review
Meanwhile, there has been a concern over the structure of the school's P and C Association.

A parent, Melanie Milgate, says the association is currently dominated by teachers rather than parents.

However, Ms Bowden says there are no members of the P and C that are Mullumbimby High School teachers.

"There are some teachers on the committee but they are from other schools," she said.

"Members of the P and C are parents, teachers and members of the community from all walks of life. Membership is open to all people."

Ms Bowden says the school is now reviewing areas that need to be strengthened, and that overall the kids are coping remarkably well.

"It will take some time to heal and there is a concerted effort to ensure the healing is as complete and thorough as possible," she said.

There was an Aboriginal and Maori smoking ceremony held at the school today in memory of Jai.

[IRS]

My Grade 7 teacher once threw a kid up against the black board >_>

On the other hand, when I was in Kununurra in grade 5 or 6, one of the teachers on playground duty got bottled by an aboriginal girl.

My year 10 history teacher was on Today Tonight for shoving a kid on his ass because he wouldn't get out the class when asked.


He was awesome.

[Second]

Woodworking Teacher once cut a skaterboi's board in half. Good times.

[Lazlow]

Haha f***ing owned his shit.

[sausage]

Should have been his dick! LOL!

[IRS]

Woodworking Teacher once cut a skaterboi's board in half. Good times.

That is badass.






Oh, btw. I have a solution. Fine the parents for the kids messing up. Once their booze and pokies money is on the line those kids will get beat to death by their parents if they cut class or get in a fight.

[big_b]

Should have been his dick! LOL!

fail. dont try and be funny again. it doesnt work.

[Afrogamer]

...wow

[Second]

Wow indeed. Very mature.

[sausage]

I accept any infraction with pride and am totally unrepentant. Believe me; it was worth it.

[jawsy]

Recap?

[Second]

big_b: "That was a shit joke."
silly: "**** YOU!"
Mods: "K. Infraction."
silly: "ttly worth it."

[big_b]

shame i didnt get to see it.

[Patdog]

**** YOU!!!

there you go.

[FrozenSoul80]

Was bumping a month-old thread really necessary?

[Vindik8or]

Well I doubt he would have done it if it wasn't!

[AranchineD]

I agree. Totally worth it.

Well done Patdog.

[Patdog]

I was tired.