The recommend a tv for gaming thread

[super_deformed]

THE "RECOMMEND A TV FOR GAMING" THREAD

I've been reading reviews. Visiting places like av forums. Still I don't have a clear answer to my question......

What's a good 32-40 inch TV for gaming?

Really not fussed about whether its plasma or LCD, though I lean towards LCD.

Of course if its an LCD recommendation then the set must have a reasonably low input lag when in gaming mode. Something around 10ms?

I was starting to consider the SONY 40' Z5500 (200HZ) however guys on the AV forums reckon the input lag is 30ms+ in gaming mode (ie with motionflow off).

The cheap DELL monitor option is out as I need the set to have its own speakers and digital tuner.

The PANASONIC 42' G10 Viera Plasma also caught my eye due to strong reviews. Though it looked a little cheap and nasty in the shop. Is plasma a good technology for gaming? Burn in / image retention seems to be a small issue these days, easily managed in the latest models. BUT I am a worrier....

If you know a good site for TV reviews please post the link.

[JubeiSaotome]

Is latency an issue?

[FrozenSoul80]

I was starting to consider the SONY 40' Z5500 (200HZ) however guys on the AV forums reckon the input lag is 30ms+ in gaming mode (ie with motionflow off).

Ignore them, it's an excellent TV and I don't notice any input lag at all.

[super_deformed]

Ignore them, it's an excellent TV and I don't notice any input lag at all.

Regarding the SONY Bravia Z5500, the following post is what turned me off. Sure it's just one guys opinion....

http://www.avforums.com/forums/10281807-post522.html
I bought the 40inch z5500 last week after reading up about it, and the alternatives, on this forum. It term of picture and sound quality I'm delighted. However...

I play quite a bit of call of duty 4 on ps3, but wasn't too concerned about input lag as i didn't see how such small differences could have any impact. I was also pretty sure that it was bound to be better than the tv it was replacing (32 inch Humax LP32 TDR1).

Unfortunately, it was immediately apparent that something was wrong. I went from being an OK player to getting raped every game. I thought it was perhaps because I wasn't used to playing on a bigger screen, so have run some lag tests. The tests were in comparison to my desktop monitor - a Samsung SyncMaster 940BF, which is supposed to have a resonse time of 2ms (as close to a CRT as I can manage). The monitor was connected via DVI and the TV by DVi to HDMI. I did several tests using game mode and general mode with motion flow set to off, standard and high. Individual tests within each mode gave almost exactly consistent results. I have pictures of all the tests, but am not sure how to upload them.

The differences between the tv and the monitor were:

Game mode - 47ms
General mode, motion flow off - 78ms
General mode, motion flow standard - 94ms
General mode, motion flow high - 94ms

My old Humax - 31ms

I still find it incredible that such a small increase can be so detrimental, but it's hard for me to argue with having been on the receiving end of the effect.

I'm absolutely gutted after spending so much money.
Last edited by Banana44; 02-09-2009 at 6:26 PM.


And here's the lag issue explored in real life:
LINK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TETrO0GypU&feature=PlayList&p=8E93FF764D82C057&index=0&playnext=1

Okay. Im no SF4 expert. But I could be one day!!! :)

[FrozenSoul80]

On closer inspection, my TV is a Z4500. My lag tests have only been based off the Guitar Hero synchronisation test, which showed no lag. Is there a way I can test it better?

[super_deformed]

On closer inspection, my TV is a Z4500. My lag tests have only been based off the Guitar Hero synchronisation test, which showed no lag. Is there a way I can test it better? Do you play in GAME mode?

From what Ive read in that thread on AV forums, the Z4500 has a 10MS response time in gamer mode. Which is perfectly fine.

The Z5500, if that post is to be believed, is far worse.

How to test? Not sure.

[FrozenSoul80]

Do you play in GAME mode?

From what Ive read in that thread on AV forums, the Z4500 has a 10MS response time in gamer mode. Which is perfectly fine.

The Z5500, if that post is to be believed, is far worse.

How to test? Not sure.

I honestly have no idea what mode it's set to, probably default. I wasn't even aware it had a game mode.

But still, it's an excellent TV and plays games very well (and this is coming from someone who generally dislikes Sony products). It's only downside is the price.

If you are really worried about how well the TV will perform with games, I'm sure a store who sells them would be happy to allow you to try your gaming console with one of their demo models. They'll do anything to get a sale.

[Zan]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1148374

The testing method is slightly flawed, but I must say that in general the Sharp Aquas series has a very good reputation with it's game mode.

If you know somebody there with RB2, I recommend you take it, a console and your RB2 guitar into a store and do some testing. They are sure to help you if they think they can get a sale out of you.

edit: I recommend RB2 because it has an automated test using a sensor on the guitar. I wouldn't recommend the other ones so much because they rely so heavily on your perception of when the best time to input is. Mind you RB2 auto test isn't 100% reliable so it's best to do the test multiple times to get an idea. The only 100% reliable way to do it is with the method listed in the link above, using a CRT monitor instead.

[Vicious]

The PANASONIC 42' G10 Viera Plasma also caught my eye due to strong reviews. Though it looked a little cheap and nasty in the shop. Is plasma a good technology for gaming? Burn in / image retention seems to be a small issue these days, easily managed in the latest models. BUT I am a worrier....

Unfortunately my guide exploded when the forums went down. If you go with plasma there's a few things you have to do:

Drop contrast down to 50% at beginning, run a calibration DVD and adjust from there.

Use varied content for around 200hrs, use whitewash screen when not viewing material to reach goal even faster.

Re-calibrate . . . preferably with an ISF tech, but if nothing else use DVD again.

With that done you may still have mild image retention for a while, but it will eventually go away and prove to be very resilient. If scenes appear too dark don't touch contrast if possible, use brightness instead. Excessive contrast is what has destroyed many plasma displays, but brightness is inherently limited by contrast. Contrast controls white point, brightness controls black point. Simplest way I can explain it.


As long as you don't plan on using your plasma for a PC monitor 365 days out of the year you shouldn't need worry about burn-in. This means extremely long gaming sessions can be safe, assuming you offset them with other games or material. In other words, USE THEM :D


As you can tell, my vote obviously goes to the Panny. It's just an overall amazing display . . . regular LCDs can't touch it.

[Second]

I'm reviving this thread.

Looking at getting a decent sized LCD for my PS3 and 360. I know buttshit all about HD TVs, so let's hear some recommendations (before Bronze tries to convince me to get a $6,000 TV).

[adam_91vn]

What size do you want and how much do you want to spend?

[Second]

I'll spend as much as it takes for decent quality gaming, looking at 40".

[Mr.Mew]

Depends where you're putting it for starters. If you have a massive living room with a decent amount of space go with whatever size you want, otherwise you'll need to work out distance from the television. Cramped conditions and huge screen means pixels will stand out like polygons. And always test the remote control, it's important to have a comfortable remote; one that always registers on every button press.

Sorry, I know this isn't 'suggestions to TV methodology thread'. That stuff's really important though.

[Ad-Rock]

Is 50Hz/60Hz ok for regular gaming on an LCD, with PS3 and 360, or is 100Hz a must?

Basically I was going to buy this TV Samsung series 5 (http://www.samsung.com/au/consumer/tv-audio-video/television/lcd-tv/LA32B550K1FXXY/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail&returnurl=) but then the sales guy showed me this one Sharp Aquos (http://www.sharp.net.au/product-catalogue/products/LC32D77X/).

The first has a better picture (better contrast 70000:1 and looks clearer) but the second is 100Hz (and 50000:1 contrast). At the moment they are roughly the same price, but the Sharp comes with a 3 year warranty and meaning that with an extended warranty the Samsung will cost more.

So really I guess the question is it worth sacrificing some picture quality for extra fps? And is 100Hz important for "casual" gaming.

[sausage]

Yeah I'm looking for a good, cheap 42 inch LCD too.

Ideal ms number?

Ideal contrast?

Not too hung up on brands; just want a decent LCD with good specs.

[Vindik8or]

Well the biggest thing is input lag, and that is never advertised because it's usually bad. I'm also trying to find a 30-40 inch full HD telly that has as low input lag as possible and is otherwise decent. Also one that is actually readily available.

[Second]

Well the biggest thing is input lag, and that is never advertised because it's usually bad. I'm also trying to find a 30-40 inch full HD telly that has as low input lag as possible and is otherwise decent. Also one that is actually readily available.

Second.

I plan on just going shopping with Bronze some time in the near future. I figure he'll show me what's what.

[TrinityJayOne]

My 2c-

MS- for gaming, you wouldn't want anything above 5ms.

Viewing angle- shouldn't be an issue unless you're counting on a lot of multiplayer, as you'll always be in front of the screen. But shit viewing angles could prove annoying if the screen is big and you're sitting real close.

Contrast- I don't know what's standard these days, but the main thing is to ignore any figure that has "dynamic" infront of it or some other buzzword. This is always far, far higher than the real contrast ratio.

LCD panel type- TN is the cheapest and fastest (or maybe not anymore?), but has poor viewing angles. ?-IPS and ?-PVA will give better colors and viewing angle, but are generally a bit slower (again this may no longer be the case).

LCD pixel bits- TN panels often have 6bit pixels rather than the 8bits you get with the better panel types. This means they can only display about 260,000 colors rather than the 16,700,000 of 24bit truecolor. A 6bit panel uses dithering and a rapid flickering effect to mimic the colors it can't directly produce. Anyone savvy enough to research their purchase is likely going to notice such inadequacies and be annoyed by it.


The TV pros will fill in the gaps I'm sure.

[Ad-Rock]

Ended up snagging a Sony Bravia W 32 inch for a good price, with a 5 year warranty. Full HD, 100Hz and the picture is fantastic. $1299 down to $850 plus $90 for an extended warranty.

[Second]

Where from and what's the latency like on it?

[Ad-Rock]

Where from and what's the latency like on it?

From Retravision, it was on special for the boxing day sales and someone put down a deposit but then cancelled it last week. Just got lucky I think.

Is latency the same as response time? If so I think it's 8ms.

EDIT: After a little research running the TV in "GAME MODE" reduces input lag greatly, but not completely. Personally, I haven't noticed it at all.

[Vindik8or]

No, latency is not the same as the pixel response time. You need a specialised set up to get a measurement, but basically it comes down to how it feels when you're playing.

[sausage]

So vin is there like a latency measurement that is on a tv specs list?

Is there something else, like the ms figure, that could suggest good or bad latency issues?

@ Ad-rock: what does the manual say about this "game mode"? What does it do?

These questions need answers.

[Vindik8or]

There is not. They don't tend to advertise them because they're usually bad, and as they add more of those different image enhancement features it gets worse. There are some websites that independently test this stuff, but it's pretty patchy and difficult to find. There's nothing localised that I can find.

Game modes turn off all the post processing that they build into HD tellies that cause input lag in the first place, it'll never eliminate it. Ideally the measurement should be below 30ms, at that point it tends not to be noticeable. Most of them are around the 60ms+ mark, with a lot as high as 120ms. It's pretty atrocious.

[sausage]

thanks vin, very clear.

[Ad-Rock]

I haven't done a lot of gaming on it so far, but I have noticed the difference in quality between Game Mode and non-Game Mode play. That is, Game Mode>>Regular.

If it lags a bit I guess I'll notice when I load up an intense shooter or something.

[Saxby]

I love my 32" samsung that I picked up 2 years ago. It's my portable 360 device. I use my 50" plasma at home, but the LCD has a clearer resolution, uses less power and doesn't get nearly as hot. In the plasma's defense, it is considerably larger...

LCD has generally been heralded as most appropriate for games and plasma for movies.

[Second]

I'm thinking of getting a Sony Bravia 32" Full HD LCD TV (KDL32W5500) tomorrow. Thoughts?

[TrinityJayOne]

I asked Luke lastnight, he thought that they were using 6bit panels for that line and to avoid it, but Sony's tech sheet (http://www.sony.co.uk/product/t32-w-series/kdl-32w5500/tab/technicalspecs) says otherwise. Looks like a solid purchase to me, dependent on price of course.

[Second]

That's all I needed to hear. IOU1BJ

[Australian Ninja]

Can someone post a link to or some such that explains terms such as "input lag" and "latency"

Feel free to explain it to me, but I'd appreciate something to go away and read, as it will help me to buy a TV later in the year the more I understand about them.

[Vindik8or]

Here's two:

www.wikipedia.com

http://www.hyper.com.au/forums/showpost.php?p=1173836&postcount=24

[sausage]

Oh you.

[TrinityJayOne]

Input lag & latency are the same thing, but very different to response time (ms). Ever watched a poorly encoded torrent of something where the sound is out of sync with the video? It's kind of like that. To put it in a game perspective, imagine playing Guitar Hero and hitting the notes perfectly, only the game says you're missing them. It's because there is lag between when the TV receives input from the console and when that data is actually relayed onscreen & through speakers. Every TV is going to have input lag, but some are known for being worse.

As Vin stated, anything that's generally associated with a buzzword is not doing your gaming any favours as it introduces more lag. While watching a movie or whatever it doesn't matter, but in games the effects are obvious. Furthermore, don't buy a TV just because it touts a "game mode", as all this does is turn off the buzzword features and any decent TV is going to let you do that yourself.

[Munky]

My Samsung Series 6 offers decent gaming.

Rock Band lag is about 30ms.

[Ad-Rock]

I'm thinking of getting a Sony Bravia 32" Full HD LCD TV (KDL32W5500) tomorrow. Thoughts?

It's late I know, but I own one and am very happy with it.

[Australian Ninja]

Input lag & latency are the same thing, but very different to response time (ms). Ever watched a poorly encoded torrent of something where the sound is out of sync with the video? It's kind of like that. To put it in a game perspective, imagine playing Guitar Hero and hitting the notes perfectly, only the game says you're missing them. It's because there is lag between when the TV receives input from the console and when that data is actually relayed onscreen & through speakers. Every TV is going to have input lag, but some are known for being worse.

As Vin stated, anything that's generally associated with a buzzword is not doing your gaming any favours as it introduces more lag. While watching a movie or whatever it doesn't matter, but in games the effects are obvious. Furthermore, don't buy a TV just because it touts a "game mode", as all this does is turn off the buzzword features and any decent TV is going to let you do that yourself.

Awww, but I wanna play the game with the stick man pushing the boxes around. Oh, you meant a different "game mode"

Thanks, and also to VIN, I'll check out those links to nowhere.

[/backslash]

If anyone is looking for a 40" 1080p LCD Samsung Series 6 (new model) for under $1200 get to DSE or order it online for $1197

http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/en/product/GE6458

Seriously good price, I paid $2800 for my 46" nearly 2 years ago (old model). I could've bought 2x 40"s for this price with cash to spare :p

[Gunblade89]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but i didn't feel it was worth starting a new one!

I'm going to be putting down some dough on a telly soon, as i've just about saved up for one.

I've been trying to research what my best options are, considering i can't afford to spend more than $800 on a tv and all the shitty cheaper tv's on the market lately.

These are the ones i'm eyeing off at the moment.

http://dicksmith.com.au/product/GE6012/sony-bravia-81cm-32-quot-full-high-definition-lcd-tv

Sony Bravia 32'' 1080P LCD TV

http://dicksmith.com.au/product/GE6046/samsung-101cm-40-quot-full-high-definition-lcd-tv-la40c550

Samsung 101cm (40") Full High Definition LCD TV LA40C550 (series 5)

http://dicksmith.com.au/product/GE6046/samsung-101cm-40-quot-full-high-definition-lcd-tv-la40c550

Panasonic 37'' 1080P LCD TV

http://dicksmith.com.au/product/GE6120/panasonic-94cm-37-quot-full-high-definition-lcd-tv-th-l37u20a

Any thoughts on these TV's? These to me based on what i've found out is desireable for gaming when it comes to HDTV's is the best available for my price range, and i've read some bad things about the other cheaper ones available.

My gf wants one closer to the 40'' mark, i however like the look of the Sony as it looks high quality and value for money. :confused:

[Vindik8or]

I've found the best ones in the 32" size.

http://dicksmith.com.au/product/GE6044/samsung-81cm-32-quot-full-high-definition-lcd-tv-la32c550

http://dicksmith.com.au/product/GE6012/sony-bravia-81cm-32-quot-full-high-definition-lcd-tv

The Samsung has the fastest input lag you'll ever get from an LCD TV, and the Sony is pretty close behind. Getting a bigger TV really just means you can (need to) sit further from the TV. Depending on the distance you sit from it, bigger is not better. You don't get any extra resolution, so pretty much each of the pixels just becomes bigger and more noticeable from the same distance.

[Gunblade89]

Good point, How fast exactly is their input lag?
I read that anything from 30ms is almost unnoticable to the human eye.

[Lex]

Good point, How fast exactly is their input lag?
I read that anything from 30ms is almost unnoticable to the human eye.

Well, if you play jap rhythm games, you'll notice it, but for most other things, probably not.

[Vindik8or]

14ms average for the Samsung. I just rechecked and I was talking out my arse about the Sony, it's got 40ms input lag, but it's very good in all other regards (and 40ms is still better than most). I'm planning on getting a Samsung myself, but they're both solid choices.

[buckstwits]

I have 2 of those 32" Sonys and they're really good (haven't noticed any lag).

[Xanafalgue]

I would go with a Plasma. No lag, no issues and a great picture.

[Gunblade89]

14ms average for the Samsung. I just rechecked and I was talking out my arse about the Sony, it's got 40ms input lag, but it's very good in all other regards (and 40ms is still better than most). I'm planning on getting a Samsung myself, but they're both solid choices.

I might go for the Samsung, maybe in the 37'' or 40'' just to keep the GF happy :P (i assume they are all the same tech specs)

Only thing i haven't been able to find out is it's response time, i'm hoping it's around 5ms or lower. And also i think that model is 50hz, would that make much difference?

[Gunblade89]

I would go with a Plasma. No lag, no issues and a great picture.

I don't mind Plasmas, my brother has a pretty nice one.
They are alot more expensive though :( and lcd's have come a long way.

[Vindik8or]

I might go for the Samsung, maybe in the 37'' or 40'' just to keep the GF happy :P (i assume they are all the same tech specs)

Only thing i haven't been able to find out is it's response time, i'm hoping it's around 5ms or lower. And also i think that model is 50hz, would that make much difference?

Never mind about pixel response time, it just isn't an issue anymore. 50/60 Hz is ideal (unless you're going for 3D in which case you need 100/120 Hz) because input lag is caused by image post-processing in the TV. Things like motionflow (or whatever they call the extra Hz), dynamic contrast, colour profiles or modes all require extra time for the TV to process and display them from when they receive the image signal. TVs with game modes are supposed to turn off these features, but they're often unreliable and need to be tested to actually find out the effectiveness.

Contrary to what Xanafalgue said, Plasmas do suffer input lag, pretty much the same amount as LCD. The reason that LCDs are better for gaming than Plasmas is burn in. If you play a single game for extended periods of time you may find that the HUD or GUI elements burn into the screen, because generally they remain static throughout the entire game. LCDs don't suffer burn in.

[Gunblade89]

Never mind about pixel response time, it just isn't an issue anymore. 50/60 Hz is ideal (unless you're going for 3D in which case you need 100/120 Hz) because input lag is caused by image post-processing in the TV. Things like motionflow (or whatever they call the extra Hz), dynamic contrast, colour profiles or modes all require extra time for the TV to process and display them from when they receive the image signal. TVs with game modes are supposed to turn off these features, but they're often unreliable and need to be tested to actually find out the effectiveness.

Contrary to what Xanafalgue said, Plasmas do suffer input lag, pretty much the same amount as LCD. The reason that LCDs are better for gaming than Plasmas is burn in. If you play a single game for extended periods of time you may find that the HUD or GUI elements burn into the screen, because generally they remain static throughout the entire game. LCDs don't suffer burn in.

That sounds pretty bad about the Burn in on Plasmas, that would get pretty distracting when gaming.

I noticed some of my Xbox 360 games are ''60hz only'' does that mean they wouldn't display on a 50hz TV or would they just revert down or something?

[Vindik8or]

Pretty much all modern TVs display 50Hz (PAL) and 60Hz (NTSC), and switch between them as needed automatically.

[Gunblade89]

I see, i must have been getting confused between refresh rates and power voltages. Shouldn't have any issues as my old tube TV can produce 60hz so why wouldn't a 1080p TV :p

Well i put a hold on the Samsung and i'm going to buy it tomorrow as they only had two left in the store closest to me, pretty good deal considering the same TV is selling for about $200 more in other stores.

[Gunblade89]

Got the Samsung LA37C550 today, pretty decent so far.
Haven't really tested it out to much, tried SFIV and Assassins Creed 2. The latter had abit of ''screen tearing'' but i'm only running through composite at the moment. All in All though great HDTV for under $800 i'd say :)

For all other HDTV owners out there, do you see jagged edges in your PS3 or 360 games? I have slight jaggies in mine, but i did read the Xbox 360 doesn't have good anti-aliasing.

[Vindik8or]

Well composite only transmits a standard definition signal so you're wasting your $ until you put in a proper connection.

[Gunblade89]

Whoops :p, i meant to say Component HD AV Cable that comes with the console.

[Gunblade89]

Tried playing my Xbox 360 using the Samsungs ''Game Mode'' and i personally think it looks better without it on, might need to play around with it some more though.

[Gunblade89]

Why do you guys use to clean your lcd tv screen? My girlfriends nephew came over and proceeded to wipe a few fingerprints on my screen. It's not really noticable while watching/playing but looks like shit when it's turned off.

I've heard alot of different advice regarding this, so what's the best methods?

[TrinityJayOne]

Manual should tell you, but I believe your standard lint-free cloth should do the trick.

[Gunblade89]

Ah yeah it says no chemicals, just H20 but i heard tap water can be bad for your screen. So would distilled water be necessary?

I have a microfiber cloth that came with the tv.

[Vindik8or]

Everything is chemicals. Except when it's energy.

(Isopropyl alcohol + microfibre cloth for me)

[Silverwolf]

Note for the thread: The LED backlit Sony Bravia is a very good TV.

****in' sexy.

[Creedy]

Contrary to what Xanafalgue said, Plasmas do suffer input lag, pretty much the same amount as LCD. The reason that LCDs are better for gaming than Plasmas is burn in. If you play a single game for extended periods of time you may find that the HUD or GUI elements burn into the screen, because generally they remain static throughout the entire game. LCDs don't suffer burn in.

Burn in is a load of crap these days, granted it can happen but you'd have to be a complete idiot and leave the TV on for 24 hours or more. You may get some image retention which will look like burn-in, but once you let the pixels adjust to other images the retention will vanish.

I had a Pioneer plasma for 4 years and it never ever got burn-in issues from any games. It did however get burn-in issues from Windows ..... because I was an idiot and left the start bar visable as well as the top section of the Windows and I used my PC all the damn time.

I just got a brand new Panasonic TH-P54V20A 54inch plasma and games look amazing, both on consoles and PC. I'll nbe making sure I take more care in my Windows use and keep the Start bar hidden.

*EDIT*
Anything like Motionflow or Frame Smoother should be turned off right the **** away!!!

*EDIT 2*
Burn-in isn't as annoying as you think, it's only really noticeable if your entire screen is pure white, occasionally noticeable in pure black scenes too.