American Health Care Reform

[aubergine]

If you've seen "Sicko" you'd have some idea of how appalling the United State's public health care system is - basically, there isn't one, and the private health care is shocking.

I sent a message to Moore after viewing it saying how shocked I was - that Americans are so gung-ho about their rights, yet they have no protected right to even live!

Anyway, Obama is trying, as others have before, to reform US health care (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/10/2681809.htm) by introducing an equivalent to our (and many other countries') Medicare.

The Republicans are making out that the concept is birthed from Satan's very arsehole. Meanwhile, people are pushed out of hospitals to literally die on the footpath.

[kirok]

That's a matter of perception. We dont know how they spend the money they get for working their asses off. I see people complain about not having health insurance for their kids, yet they have a cell phone and satellite tv or other things that are not necessity. But yes, there are always going to be people who lose out because people scam the system.

But back to my question- What incentive do I have to work if I can get reduced housing costs,food stamps, reduced food prices at food banks and free health care ?
(http://forums.mmajunkie.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=5299&sid=2ce91dfd64233d5f3d2a569fa4a05e91)

[Vindik8or]

Have you actually tried it Kirok? There is no dignity in it, and you'll end up with a raft of pseudo-psychoses - borderline depression, anxiety, irritability. There are plenty of incentives to work aside from money, societies have functions before the invention of cash and will do so long after that shit has been removed. Have a think about some of the things that would get you off your arse and working (though working at KFC, I'm pretty sure that a paycheck would be the only thing getting me back there, ever).

[castr8or]

Seriously, bringing Moore into this is probably the worst thing you could do, have you seen an actual Cuban hospital? not one for the well to do Cubans/foreigners? They are shocking

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm <---probably not worksafe, some of the images are quite scatty etc Of course, thats unsurprising since Cuba is going through a toilet paper shortage atm lol

[Fenrir]

Hmm, I tend to assert that private healthcare (along with private education, among other things) shouldn't exist, so I'd fully support Obama; but to keep the thread interesting, I'll get a bit devil's-advocate-esque.

Have you actually tried it Kirok? There is no dignity in it, and you'll end up with a raft of pseudo-psychoses - borderline depression, anxiety, irritability.
Can vouch for this - but that's not to say it's enough to motivate everyone. It's the sort of state that can feed off itself, and/or compound other disorders, really, and I'm not really convinced that everyone will force themselves out of that sort of rut at some point.

There are plenty of incentives to work aside from money, societies have functions before the invention of cash and will do so long after that shit has been removed. Have a think about some of the things that would get you off your arse and working (though working at KFC, I'm pretty sure that a paycheck would be the only thing getting me back there, ever).
Then who would fill the KFC-esque jobs?

[banjoeskimo]

kirok, that's not the point, and I'll explain why.

First off, introduction to US health care...

Unlike most other places in the world, health care in America is almost always tied directly to your employer. Meaning, your employer buys your health insurance for you. This is how the majority of Americans have health insurance. It should be noted also that these benefits (if decent) usually also extend to an employees family, so it's very common for an employer to be paying for an entire family's insurance. Currently, there are roughly 50 million uninsured in the US, representing about 1/5th of the population.

That being said, this system is not mandatory, and employers are not required to offer insurance by any means. So depending on where you work, whether or not you have insurance (not to mention the quality of insurance) will vary greatly. And while it is possible to purchase insurance on an individual basis, it is very difficult to do so since it's prohibitively expensive. Why? Since most people get their insurance through an employer, who is purchasing in bulk, employers are able to buy insurance at a much cheaper rate. So if you go it alone, you're facing costs far above what most other people are paying.

Where does this leave us? Well, if your employer offers crappy insurance, or worse, no insurance (this is especially common in minimum wage jobs and small business) you're on your own. And if you're employed by a place that can't afford to give you insurance? Chances are you're not being paid enough to afford it on your own. So, y'know, kind of an issue there.

Worse still, insurers are under little obligation to, quite frankly, do their f---ing jobs. Under current US law it's perfectly legal for an insurance company to deny coverage to someone with a pre-existing condition, or raise their premiums significantly upon the discovery of any illness. So if you're sick and don't have insurance already? You're shit out of luck. Want to know how much something as simple as a broken arm costs in the US without medical insurance? Try $18,000 USD. I don't even know how high we're talking once you start talking actual conditions like diabetes or cancer.

As an aside, if you're wondering where I'm getting all this, I currently live in the US on a student visa, and insurance is something we're well trained on at the international department of my university, since they don't ever want out of country students here without insurance due to the aforementioned costs. Subsequently we get a lot of documentation on how much things cost sans insurance. Additionally I'm a massive political junkie and have been following this debate intently for the last three months.

Anyway, so the basic point is this: the American system, as it currently exists, is enormously expensive, offers no protection for the poorest people in the country and is patently unfair to anyone who actually has the audacity to get sick.

If you want to know how bad it really is, consider the following. Something like one third of bankruptcies in the United States are caused by medical bills. Of those bankruptcies, sixty eight percent of them are from people who already have insurance. The people being f---ed over here aren't just the irresponsible and the financially retarded. They're the people playing by the rules and still being screwed.

So what is everyone going to do about it? Well, we're not entirely sure yet. This has been tried (and failed) before by Clinton in 1993, so Obama's administration is understandably apprehensive about how they want to do this. Current items on the table for discussion that may or may not make it into the final legislation include...

The 'Public Option' - Pretty much this would be a government run and funded insurance company that would operate at the national level. It would not have to make a profit, would offer coverage to all Americans, and its primary purpose would be to compete with private insurance companies in order to lower costs. It would be able to offer cheaper premiums than current private insurers by using the same bulk purchasing that businesses use to buy their employees insurance, except that instead of being pooled with fellow employees, you'd be pooled with other Americans across the country who want the same plan as you. Obama has stated his support for this publicly, but no one knows if it'll make the cut since the Democrats don't appear to have the votes in the Senate to pass the legislation if it includes the public option. On the flip side, if the legislation doesn't include it, it won't be able to pass the House since too many House Democrats in the progressive caucus are demanding its inclusion. So it's really just a matter of who's going to cave first.

The Co-Op Option - This is essentially the smaller, weaker brother of the public option. Instead of starting a government run organisation to compete with insurers, instead, the government would fund the start-up costs of non-profit insurance cooperatives on a state by state basis. It's likely that we might end up with this, since it's cheaper than the public option, however there's also evidence to suggest it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective, since these co-ops would be smaller state-based operations and wouldn't be as large as the federal option, thus (presumably) providing less intense competition with the private insurers.

Pre Existing Conditions - This is the one truly uncontroversial part that everyone, Democrat and Republican wants. No matter what, both parties want to put an end to insurers being able to deny coverage based on pre existing conditions.

Mandatory Insurance - In the US it's illegal to drive a car unless your vehicle is insured. Some Senate Democrats have been discussing a similar idea for health insurance; i.e. making it illegal not to have it, or at least penalising you financially if you don't. Anyone earning up to 4x that of the national poverty level would be able to apply for government assistance to afford the cost of insuring themselves.

Mandatory Employer-based Insurance - An alternative to the previous idea that's also been floating around is that employers should shoulder the burden, and that if they don't offer insurance to their employees they should be penalised. Assistance or an exemption would apply to small businesses under a certain size.

There's other stuff being floated as well, but that's the "big picture" stuff so far. Honestly? I hope Obama succeeds, and we get the public option. I don't have anything against private industry inherently, but the current system has been so bastardised and so broken that I'm willing to give government intervention a chance. Not to mention, most of the opposition to this (at least, most of what's been broadcast / published) has nothing to do with genuine critique of the plan, so much as just blindly trying to sink it because a good portion of the Republican party are in the mood to act like gigantic cocks right now.

Still, if you're in the mood for a private alternative, the best critique of the current plan I've seen so far is this article (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care) which was published in The Atlantic last month. A damn shame the rest of the opposition to Obama's plan isn't like this, because it brings up some good points, although it too makes a case for massive reform, albeit in a different direction.

Oh, and before anyone asks, yes, I will murder anyone who shoots their mouth off about death panels or illegal immigrants getting insurance. Neither option has been on the table at any point and they're both absurd lies put forth by assholes to be digested freely by morons.

[sausage]

Great post Eibach.

Holy jesus what a balls up. How did it ever get so bad?

Tying it to employers was ther first mistake and that was the opening sentence! After that it's all downhill.


NZ's comprehensive non-exclusive accident compensation (medical insurance basically) (http://www.acc.co.nz/index.htm)

As for NZs chronic and ongoing medical care we have the normal gamut of personal private health insurers or you can flip a coin and rely on the Govt medical care service which will cost you but subsidies are there for the poor and elderly.

If you are like me; white bourgeois male with no health problems; then get private health insurance. The missus works as a school prinicipal so we both get ours through her teachers union.

So come on Barack, give me a call bro let's talk.

[Cicada]

I love this talk of death panels, it really perks up my day hearing blatant lies designed to strike fear into a population. While I'm far from knowledgeable in the ins and outs of the American heath insurance industry, what really gets me annoyed is the constant labeling by conservatives of any government health care scheme as Orwellian. These are the same people that wholeheartedly supported the USA Patriot Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act), one of the more personally invasive pieces of legislation enacted by a Western Democracy; that's fine, but Britain's NHS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_%28England%29) is the slippery road to 1984, somehow.

[banjoeskimo]

Holy jesus what a balls up. How did it ever get so bad?

Tying it to employers was ther first mistake and that was the opening sentence! After that it's all downhill.

You can blame WWII for that. Due to the war there was a wage freeze, and faced with no new way to attract employees, businesses got creative and started offering health insurance instead of higher wages. This spread, and given that the wage freeze was over a period of about six years, proliferated quite significantly.

Fast forward to the end of the war, and suddenly larger firms look like tight arses if they're not offering their employees insurance. Hello new social norm.

[Tonez]

Eibach: Can you explain what you mean by "death panels or illegal immigrants getting insurance"?

[banjoeskimo]

Sure.

A few weeks ago (the health care debate has been going for a few months now) former Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin left a message on her Facebook page claiming that the government has no right to intervene in lives of Americans with regard to health insurance, and that if Obama's plan succeeded, health care to the elderly would be rationed. The end result would be what she termed "Death Panels," a supposed panel of government officials who would decide whether or not the cost of providing treatment to a given individual would be worth it, thus deciding their fate.

Where this came from is anyone's guess, but it's a complete and utter lie. And I don't mean a normal political lie, where it's kind of sort of based on something but exaggerated, what I mean is that this pants on fire retarded and she's straight up making shit up.

Either way, it stuck in the minds of many in the American public, and now something like 50% of Americans are worried that Obama plans to take their health care away and decided via government panels who gets to live and die. It's absolutely f---ing insane and it's done horrible things to what should be a real and genuine debate.

A similar claim has been that under Obama's plan, the government will fund free insurance for illegal immigrants. This, like death panels, is also a complete and utter fabrication.

Both of these claims have been seized upon by more unscrupulous conservative voices in the Republican party in an all out attempt to sink Obama's plan at any cost, regardless of their truth value. Needless to say, it's a bullshit (although predictable) move that frustrates me to no end, largely because literally half the country is stupid enough to fall for it.

[sausage]

No-one's shot that bitch yet?

[Tonez]

Sure.

A few weeks ago (the health care debate has been going for a few months now) former Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin left a message on her Facebook page claiming that the government has no right to intervene in lives of Americans with regard to health insurance, and that if Obama's plan succeeded, health care to the elderly would be rationed. The end result would be what she termed "Death Panels," a supposed panel of government officials who would decide whether or not the cost of providing treatment to a given individual would be worth it, thus deciding their fate.

Where this came from is anyone's guess, but it's a complete and utter lie. And I don't mean a normal political lie, where it's kind of sort of based on something but exaggerated, what I mean is that this pants on fire retarded and she's straight up making shit up.

Either way, it stuck in the minds of many in the American public, and now something like 50% of Americans are worried that Obama plans to take their health care away and decided via government panels who gets to live and die. It's absolutely f---ing insane and it's done horrible things to what should be a real and genuine debate.

A similar claim has been that under Obama's plan, the government will fund free insurance for illegal immigrants. This, like death panels, is also a complete and utter fabrication.

Both of these claims have been seized upon by more unscrupulous conservative voices in the Republican party in an all out attempt to sink Obama's plan at any cost, regardless of their truth value. Needless to say, it's a bullshit (although predictable) move that frustrates me to no end, largely because literally half the country is stupid enough to fall for it.

Wow I normally try to keep up to date with this stuff but I never heard of this. How ridiculous.

In saying that, don't America have a sort of death panel at the moment now anyway since the insurers can decide whether or not they will insure you? If you can't get insured and can't afford the medical bills, it's going to be death regardless.

[castr8or]

If you want to know how bad it really is, consider the following. Something like one third of bankruptcies in the United States are caused by medical bills. Of those bankruptcies, sixty eight percent of them are from people who already have insurance. The people being f---ed over here aren't just the irresponsible and the financially retarded. They're the people playing by the rules and still being screwed.

its because they failed to disclose something when they took out their policy.

They can't just deny coverage because some guy in an office feels like it. Lawyers would have a field day if Health Insurance companies routinely denied coverage when individuals had followed their policy exactly.

the biggest problem faced by Obamas healthplan (especially if they go the public insurance route) is justifying such a drastic overhall and massive expenditure during a period vast financial instability.

Given the mess that Medicare/Medicaid is in over there (funnily how noone ever mention theres already government run health insurance available to the poor who can't afford private insurance, somehow Obama's plan will be better), its pretty reasonable to question the viability of a public option in such times, especially an option that they tried to smash through without any debate whatsoever.

A similar claim has been that under Obama's plan, the government will fund free insurance for illegal immigrants

maybe if he'd stop claiming that 50 million people in the US need insurance, people would stop wondering.

10 million + of those are illegal immigrants.

I should point out I do think the US needs to improve its healthcare situation, imo however it should be done gradually, firstly with greater regulation of HMOs. I can understand that from a business standpoint, insuring someone with a chronic preexisting condition doesn't make any sense whatsoever, so I do see the need for some kind of public option, I think they should be concentrating on finding a way to provide coverage to the people who can't get it (minus the illegals who should just get the **** out:P) instead of trying to find a way to cover 95% of the population as the Obama plan strives for.

Perhaps a limited public option for those who aren't able to get coverage eg a safety net kind of thing, plus a combination of the co-op option mentioned by Eibach and things like a healthcare subsidy to people who aren't provided healthcare through their jobs.

[aubergine]

I'd been wondering where the "Death Panel" crap had come from. Cheers to our erstwhile foreign correspondant Eibach.

[banjoeskimo]

its because they failed to disclose something when they took out their policy.

They can't just deny coverage because some guy in an office feels like it. Lawyers would have a field day if Health Insurance companies routinely denied coverage when individuals had followed their policy exactly.

It's not that simple. As I said earlier, for most Americans insurance is tied to your employment. So if your job disappears, oftentimes your insurance can too. So, imagine a scenario where you're diagnosed with an illness, are stricken for sufficient time that you're laid off, and then your insurance is gone. Oh shit, you're on your own, and now you've got thousands in medical bills on the way. There's an article over at Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/hscout/2009/06/04/hscout627785.html) that sums it up pretty well. Obviously, this isn't the case for everyone, but the point is there are massive gaps in this system that can leave you royally screwed through no fault of your own.

the biggest problem faced by Obamas healthplan (especially if they go the public insurance route) is justifying such a drastic overhall and massive expenditure during a period vast financial instability.

Agreed.

Given the mess that Medicare/Medicaid is in over there (funnily how noone ever mention theres already government run health insurance available to the poor who can't afford private insurance, somehow Obama's plan will be better), its pretty reasonable to question the viability of a public option in such times, especially an option that they tried to smash through without any debate whatsoever.

Yeah, but the thing's heavily means tested (http://www.cms.hhs.gov/MedicaidGenInfo/), and even being below the poverty line doesn't guarantee you coverage. Medicaid is more of an "oh shit" plan than anything. The public option is directed toward a much broader group of people, and is just aimed just as much at driving costs down as it is providing insurance to the poor.

Also, what do you mean smashing through with no debate? Obama's barely committed to the thing (much as he likes to talk about it, his will to push it through has been anything but iron clad), this debate's been going on for months, and it's not even out of all five committees to even get into the House yet. Debate hasn't even technically begun.


maybe if he'd stop claiming that 50 million people in the US need insurance, people would stop wondering.

10 million + of those are illegal immigrants.

You're pulling this from where? Any way you cut it, there's absolutely no legislation on the table right now that mentions it. Paranoia is not a good excuse for the kind of lies that are being thrown around right now.

In any case, this should get interesting soon. The deadline for reaching any sort of agreement in the Senate Finance Committee is September 15th, and if they haven't got something by that point the Democrats might have to actually grow a pair and do it themselves.

As an aside, how much coverage is this getting in Australia? I feel like you guys have a better handle on what's going on than most Americans do. Which is sad, because that's what most of my US friends always say about me.

[Readman]

I was on here looking at another thread and saw this one.

All I will say is holy living **** castr8or is stupid. Virtually everything he says is wrong or a gross distortion.

Do not listen to anything the guy says. That is all.

[Zan]

One of the first things I noticed on the news in the States is how much they hate 'illegal aliens.' I was seriously disturbed.

Thanks for the writeup Eibach, I've been trying to follow this thread:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=203205

...but it's hard when you're missing bits of the story.

[Xanafalgue]

Only a matter of time before the Republicans unleash their SECRET WEAPON

http://www.gamingdaily.co.uk/images/Fallout%203-2009-01-27/Fallout3%202009-01-27%2020-29-45-54.jpg

[Azzaman]

Dammit Larz, that things classified, do you have to bring it up at every opportunity?

[castr8or]

It's not that simple.

ahh misunderstood what you were saying, for some reason i read it as people going bankrupt because they were denied coverage even though they had insurance (which is super bad because it means either the HMO is acting illegally or at the very least in a super unethical manner, or they totally sucked at knowing their policy) as opposed to people going bankrupt because they had health insurance but because they lost it due to losing their job at a later point they would then go bankrupt.

Yeah, but the thing's heavily means tested, and even being below the poverty line doesn't guarantee you coverage. Medicaid is more of an "oh shit" plan than anything.

i don't disagree, my point is that they are having a hard enough time funding and administrating such a program as is.

Also, what do you mean smashing through with no debate?

if i recall correctly the dems were hoping to push it through congress before the summer break, not really conducive to thought out debate imo especially when there are still issues with the current proposal.

this debate's been going on for months, and it's not even out of all five committees to even get into the House yet. Debate hasn't even technically begun.

yes i know, its good that they are actually talking about it, i believe i said they 'tried', implying they didn't manage to push it through.

You're pulling this from where?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32302292/ns/health-health_care/

ok more like 8.5 million
the figures are fairly shady for everyone so forgive me if i'm slightly out

Any way you cut it, there's absolutely no legislation on the table right now that mentions it. Paranoia is not a good excuse for the kind of lies that are being thrown around right now.

my understanding of the actual argument regarding illegal immigrants (and not the dey tuk er jerbs argument) is that the wording in the bill would require an illegal alien to get health insurance after they are a resident for 5 years combined with the apparent lack of safeguards to stop fraud with the affordability vouchers in the legislation. It seems enforcement is left to the discretion of the executive branch currently >.>

I was on here looking at another thread and saw this one.

All I will say is holy living **** castr8or is stupid. Virtually everything he says is wrong or a gross distortion.

Do not listen to anything the guy says. That is all.

yeah and **** you too, if you are going to talk shit you could at least address what I have said, instead of acting like an ugly fgt with a shit haircut :) (your post didn't leave me much room to do anything beyond ad hominem, hope thats ok)

[StorminNorman]

In any case, this should get interesting soon. The deadline for reaching any sort of agreement in the Senate Finance Committee is September 15th, and if they haven't got something by that point the Democrats might have to actually grow a pair and do it themselves.

The Democrats should have grown a pair six months ago on this.

The Republican party needs to ****ing die before it makes that final descent into pure Fascist politics.

As an aside, how much coverage is this getting in Australia? I feel like you guys have a better handle on what's going on than most Americans do. Which is sad, because that's what most of my US friends always say about me.

I don't really follow the commercial networks, but the ABC has given it a fair bit of coverage, both on radio and TV. Stories like Obama's speech are usually newsworthy enough to make all the nightly bulletins, while the deeper issues get occasional coverage on ABC's AM radio program and The 7:30 Report.

For me, though, most of my coverage has come via The Daily Show on the Comedy Channel.

One thing about all the local media reports I've seen/heard on the issue is that the journalists all seem to approach their reports with a sense of bemusement that this is such a difficult thing for America to do. It's kind of this "If we have it, how come it's so hard for them to have it?" attitude that comes out in a lot of reporting here.

[ThePhotoshop]

For me, though, most of my coverage has come via The Daily Show on the Comedy Channel.
Me too.

Is there something wrong with this?

Is it any better than watching CNN?

[Readman]

yeah and **** you too, if you are going to talk shit you could at least address what I have said, instead of acting like an ugly fgt with a shit haircut :) (your post didn't leave me much room to do anything beyond ad hominem, hope thats ok)

I was going to type up a full response but your post is literally like every single sentence contains something that is factually inaccurate or a massive distortion. Eibach has dealt with some, so I won't go over them again. Also I CBFed doing the whole post because it's so full of bullshit it would take me like a week or something.

I'll focus on one (recission) to show how full of shit you are and how you don't even understand basic concepts that you're arguing.

The first point is that - what is a failure to disclose a pre-existing condition? It basically means that if you made even the slightest mistake or something slipped your mind while you were filling out your application, that you have the potential to be rescinded. Any party to a contract can rescind anything they want. If the other party doesn't like it, then they have to go to court to enforce it.

There are literally cases where someone didn't fill in an acne appointment and got their cover dropped as a result when they got sick. The plain fact is that they can rescind for any reason they want, and it's up to you to do something about it.

And suing them? I want to live in your world where big corporations never **** anyone over because they're afraid they'll be sued. I'll walk you through the scenario if you get a serious illness and your insurance cover is rescinded.

You have tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical expenses piling up. You could lose your job because America also has ****-all labour protections. Even if not, your ability to work is going to be severely reduced. On top of that, you have a serious illness that is draining you physically and mentally.

Any legal case that is contested takes years to resolve. Meanwhile, the company you're suing has a budget probably dozens or hundreds of times larger than yours and they can appeal as much as they want and they can ramp up the pressure on you as much as they want to. But that's assuming that you've found a lawyer who will work for free (or close to) for years with no prospect of ultimate success.

If you think that contract law remedies are the answer you are kidding yourself.

[Gio]

Big pharma is backing the health care plan, sucked in.

[Vindik8or]

Big pharma is backing the health care plan, sucked in.

Of course they are. More people with healthcare and more people able to afford their drugs means more money for them without them doing a thing.

[Readman]

It's because the plan is pretty weak and has a lot of handouts to corporations like that. Really, the whole industry needs to have a hatchet taken to it and the healthcare insurers need to be reduced to a minor role.

Obama and the Democrats in general really botched this one. They don't seem to have grasped the concept of an 'ambit claim'. The only saving grace is that, if there is a public option, that's something that can be built on in the future. Without a public option, it'll actually take the situation backwards and won't be worth having at all.

[banjoeskimo]

I don't know that it's that bad. I'm not sure that I can really blame Obama for anything this point beyond being naive enough to think that Congress would have done something more productive by now, and for not taking a more aggressive role. Even then, you can understand the administration's caution though after Clinton.

The fact of the matter is, with the current crop of Senators and Congresspeople, universal healthcare in America is impossible. They don't have the numbers, and the claims of socialism would all but guarantee Obama as a one-term president. There's going to have to be a massive fundamental shift in this country for that to happen. The fact that the Republicans have so successfully driven out moderates hasn't helped either; the problem with the ever expanding tent that is the Democratic party is that it's becoming too large. In taking on a wider audience they have to deal with a greater scope of people than a party normally would, and so creating unity on any one issue has become harder. Just take one look at the Blue Dogs to see what I mean.

In any case, things could get worse in some ways, but really? Worse overall? Even if they eliminate discrimination based on pre-existing conditions?

[sausage]

That isn't change we can believe in though.

[Gio]

Of course they are. More people with healthcare and more people able to afford their drugs means more money for them without them doing a thing.

Indeed, but it's just frustrating to see this issue presented as "Amazing Progressive Government vs. Big Evil Corporations" (I hear this kinda thing from Bill Maher, Rachel Maddow and the like, take from that what you will).

[Fenrir]

The fact of the matter is, with the current crop of Senators and Congresspeople, universal healthcare in America is impossible. They don't have the numbers, and the claims of socialism would all but guarantee Obama as a one-term president. There's going to have to be a massive fundamental shift in this country for that to happen. The fact that the Republicans have so successfully driven out moderates hasn't helped either; the problem with the ever expanding tent that is the Democratic party is that it's becoming too large. In taking on a wider audience they have to deal with a greater scope of people than a party normally would, and so creating unity on any one issue has become harder. Just take one look at the Blue Dogs to see what I mean.
Hmm, the usual order of progression for a group like the Democrats would involve whittling the GOP down to insignificance, and then dividing at the seams into new factions over internal differences, and for all intents and purposes becoming the new political environment.
From a political standpoint, universal healthcare may not be as important at the moment as just expanding the Democratic base whilst withstanding as little policy compromise as possible.

In any case, things could get worse in some ways, but really? Worse overall? Even if they eliminate discrimination based on pre-existing conditions?
Readman gives the impression that the big problem with healthcare over there at the moment is the highly litigious nature of the proceedings. That'll probably require a paradigm shift to remedy.

Indeed, but it's just frustrating to see this issue presented as "Amazing Progressive Government vs. Big Evil Corporations" (I hear this kinda thing from Bill Maher, Rachel Maddow and the like, take from that what you will).
So you've grasped that the whole good vs evil dichotomy practically never applies in reality. If only we could retcon ~90% of recorded history with what we have learnt here today...


By-the-by, epic thread.

[immol8]

Not long now... (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/22/2852044.htm)

Also, holy crap:
Republicans remain united in their opposition, with one declaring that healthcare reform will lead to "Armageddon" and another saying "demons" have overrun the Congress.
http://www.cslab.ece.ntua.gr/~phib/images/doom/anim/cybr1.gif
"Rarr, health reform!"

[Ad-Rock]

Not long now... (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/22/2852044.htm)

Also, holy crap:

http://www.cslab.ece.ntua.gr/~phib/images/doom/anim/cybr1.gif
"Rarr, health reform!"

Rebulicans are ****tards.

So are any Americans who believe that health reform is a bad thing...

[immol8]

...and it's done.

Now we wait for America to descend into chaos.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

The devil will now rise from the underworld to claim the US as his bitch. Or maybe it's the the Republicans he wants.

[FrozenSoul80]

Unlikely; no one wants the Republicans.

[Stevorooni]

The devil will now rise from the underworld to claim the US as his bitch. Or maybe it's the the Republicans he wants.

Well at least when he wrecks havoc destroying the world, the people he injures will be able to afford to get medical treatment

[JimmyKane]

Hey, so it did pass? Excellent.

Republicans remain united in their opposition, with one declaring that healthcare reform will lead to "Armageddon" and another saying "demons" have overrun the Congress.

I can't believe they still vote these kind of people into Congress. They need disclaimers on the ballots.

[JimmyKane]

Also, apparently if the reform doesn't make all that much of a difference for a few years (which it might not), there are going to be people blaming the democrats. If it hadn't passed and healthcare was still shit they would've blamed the republicans instead.

Should be interesting seeing if this hurts the democrats in the next presidential election.

[REQUIEM]

I am glad its past for Obama, the medical industry in the USA is out of control price wise. Most of us dont realize how lucky we are in Australia.

[aubergine]

Sunday belonged to Atkinson, Monday to Obama. The future?

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

McFly.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

McFly.

Invisible pep for Blake.

[Choabac]

I am glad its past for Obama, the medical industry in the USA is out of control price wise. Most of us dont realize how lucky we are in Australia.

The House passed the watered down Senate version of the bill (no public option etc), so that will be signed into law. However they only agreed to do that if the Senate now passes a second bill, which fixes some of the short comings of the original Senate bill.

The Senate doesn't have enough votes to stop a Republican filibuster, so they will now use reconciliation to pass the fixes to the very bill that they passed on Christmas eve.

The issue is that reconciliation can only be used to pass budgetary measures, so the Republicans are crying foul that many of the fixes are not that. If this forces the bill to be changed in anyway, then it would have to go back to the House for another vote so that the two bills are identical.

[REQUIEM]

The House passed the watered down Senate version of the bill (no public option etc), so that will be signed into law. However they only agreed to do that if the Senate now passes a second bill, which fixes some of the short comings of the original Senate bill.

The Senate doesn't have enough votes to stop a Republican filibuster, so they will now use reconciliation to pass the fixes to the very bill that they passed on Christmas eve.

The issue is that reconciliation can only be used to pass budgetary measures, so the Republicans are crying foul that many of the fixes are not that. If this forces the bill to be changed in anyway, then it would have to go back to the House for another vote so that the two bill are identical.

Blah blah blah blah. Thats the problem with todays politics.

[Queenie]

I read in the paper today that it passed and did a little "woohoo". Good things are good.

Beauracracy is poopoos and so is spelling it

[Sytadel]

Republicans remain united in their opposition, with one declaring that healthcare reform will lead to "Armageddon" and another saying "demons" have overrun the Congress.

To be fair, if you were a Republican who supported the bill - wouldn't you vote against it due to political pressure?

Also, does anyone know how they're planning to pay for the system? I fully support public health care but I hope they're balancing their books somewhere.

[aubergine]

They've claimed it will actually MAKE money and will go towards paying off the stupendous US deficit.

[Araenel]

To be fair, if you were a Republican who supported the bill - wouldn't you vote against it due to political pressure?

Also, does anyone know how they're planning to pay for the system? I fully support public health care but I hope they're balancing their books somewhere.

They could probably pay for most of it by selling a single stealth bomber.

[Sytadel]

They've claimed it will actually MAKE money and will go towards paying off the stupendous US deficit.

Maybe I'm stupid but, how? >_>

[aubergine]

It's to create a new publically-owned health insurer that aims to be
profitable but not evil, as an alternative to private, evil US insurers.

[banjoeskimo]

Hey, a topic I can be useful in for once. Awesome. I'll try and keep this short, so instead of explaining stuff I'll just link to things that do a much better job than I ever could.

-Here's exactly what the bill does. (http://docs.house.gov/energycommerce/TIMELINE.pdf) It's set up in the form of a timeline, explaining all the provisions that will eventually come in to effect and when. Some parts of the bill will start this year, other parts will be phased in gradually over the course of the next four years. Either way, if you've ever wanted to know everything that health care reform actually does, this is your document. Don't worry, it's not too long.

-Here's an article on cost control (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/the_five_most_promising_cost_c.html). This doesn't mention everything included in the bill, but it covers the most significant cost control measures and will give you a good idea of how Democrats are hoping to reign in the deficit.

-Finally, here's an article explaining what America would look like in roughly 10 years without health care reform (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/03/who_is_left_uninsured_by_the_h.html). Basically, without reform, by 2019 there would be 54 million uninsured Americans. With reform, that number goes down to 22 million.

Edit: It's also worth noting that the "public option" that aubergine mentions is dead. It's not included in the final bill, and hasn't been on the table for a while. In its place, exchanges will be set up that will be run by private insurers, however, their premiums and practices will be dictated by a series of minimum standards set by the federal government.

[aubergine]

Sweet links.

[aubergine]

I just had a laugh at Joe Biden's appraisal of the reforms. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/24/2854337.htm)

[fishfishmonkeyhat]

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/4071/590evd.png

[Lex]

Very, very rarely /b/ delivers. Just not enough for me to ever go back.

[REQUIEM]

I just had a laugh at Joe Biden's appraisal of the reforms. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/24/2854337.htm)

It was FKING great IMO. lol how much longer can Obama let this idiot taint his presidency.

[Halt, Hammerzeit]

****ing Republicans (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/violation-blocks-us-health-reform/story-e6frfku0-1225845437482)

[JimmyKane]

What the shit is this shit

[aubergine]

Here's a longer version from ABC.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/25/2856396.htm

hopefully the spate of violent threats against Democrats since the bill passed will not alter the numbers for the new vote. Way to spend public money though, Republicans.

[banjoeskimo]

Just to be clear here, the entire package is not going back to the floor. This only affects the 11 pages of fixes to the original bill, not the bill itself. The main bill (i.e. the Senate plan which is over 1000 pages long and contains the largest chunk of reform) is already law.

This would be akin to Democrats releasing Health Care 2.0 to the public, and then Republicans holding up the patch to make it Health Care 2.01.

But yeah, bullshit move from Republicans no doubt. As ridiculous as health care debate was last year, I'm expecting worse this year. The administration's top priorities for this year (in no order) are as follows:

-Financial regulation
-Immigration reform
-Education reform
-Climate change

Financial reform will probably prove frustrating, and I imagine education will be a battle just because it's an election year and they can make it a battle. But immigration and climate change? Well, for all out stupidity you really can't beat the one-two punch of racism and scientific denial that'll no doubt come to the surface.

[aubergine]

In America? Are you sure?